7 hours ago, pheaver said:

Lately, I've been doing the Anakin Mace 2x Torrent list to get better at double repo aces

Jedi arent real aces their just single ship only Leia effect crew carriers with always on passive offensive/defensive mods unless you actively try to be bad, with extreme mobility, regen, no stress, and theme for days.

Run a real ace like Kylo. Anakin was just a long game fake, the orginal traitor.

Kylo is the real Vader. Wait no thats not true at all, force is the enemy.

Correction...Blackout is the real Kylo.

6 hours ago, Biophysical said:

I actually am not unhappy with any of these facts. The world of X-wing is still way better than most times in 2.0. I just think we haven't adapted to how we're going to talk about stuff. There's a shift needed, I think, to move from list conversations to archetype conversations, and we just don't know how to do it.

random several hours later thoughts

• flattened power curve means there's less of a "top meta squad" and more of "top meta archetype"
• increased faction count splinters the meta further
• related, there is (either real or perceived) more regional variation in the meta
• overall, fewer of the same list and more similar-ish lists define the meta
• counters have to be more strategy based than card-based, relative to 1.0
• the edition change gave some veterans reasons to leave and some new players reasons to start, so on average the community has gotten a bit "greener"
• 2.0 has a deficit of institutional knowledge, being only 8 months old and having experienced only a handful of metas in that time (eg: we've never had a 2.0 "big ship" meta)

1 hour ago, Boom Owl said:

Jedi arent real aces their just single ship only Leia effect crew carriers with always on passive offensive/defensive mods unless you actively try to be bad, with extreme mobility, regen, no stress, and theme for days.

Run a real ace like Kylo. Anakin was just a long game fake, the orginal traitor.

Kylo is the real Vader. Wait no thats not true at all, force is the enemy.

Correction...Blackout is the real Kylo.

Have you heard the legend of Darth bumper the wise? (CAC Denver final)

Vader is the real Vader. Kylo would have melted. Of course Kylo also doesn’t have competent wingmates like strom and steele, so...

9 hours ago, pheaver said:

Yeah, if Rebel Beef was the best list going into an event I wanted to win, I'd play it without a second thought. But if I want to learn and improve my skills, I run something else. Lately, I've been doing the Anakin Mace 2x Torrent list to get better at double repo aces. I'm thinking about working on a vulture swarm with that new tac droid once the Hyena releases in a few weeks to play with those mechanics.

And definitely don't balance the game around spectator fun! In an ideal world, every faction makes the cut at a 15-25% rate, and if a faction is significantly higher or lower than that, the points should fix that. Also, there should be more than one viable list for each faction.

More than one viable list for each faction sounds reasonable, but that's a minimum of 14 viable lists. I hadn't thought about it before!

6 hours ago, Jeff Wilder said:

Interestingly, on a recent episode of our podcast, I asked my co-hosts exactly the opposite question: "Is it just me, or does it seem like people are bringing more of what they find fun to play that they did in 1E?" Despite Rebel Beef, despite Habba the Cut ( ... it's never gonna happen, is it?), I'm still having more fun playing that I did in the whole last quarter of 1E, and my question still stands ... albeit with the caveat that I don't travel to play in the big tournaments.

Maybe it's just a crowd thing? I think 2e has really hit home and is most successful on the casual front (where it matters most). I think it's also a much better competitive game than 1e. So I'm not really sure why the competitive crowd is grumpy (or at least grumpier than before).

15 minutes ago, Brunas said:

More than one viable list for each faction sounds reasonable, but that's a minimum of 14 viable lists. I hadn't thought about it before!

Maybe it's just a crowd thing? I think 2e has really hit home and is most successful on the casual front (where it matters most). I think it's also a much better competitive game than 1e. So I'm not really sure why the competitive crowd is grumpy (or at least grumpier than before).

Are we grumpier than before?

I havent seen that. We are just more aware that FFG reads reddit and reviews player data.

Also there are more lists that exist so there are more opportunities to be mad.

10 hours ago, pheaver said:

And definitely don't balance the game around spectator fun! In an ideal world, every faction makes the cut at a 15-25% rate, and if a faction is significantly higher or lower than that, the points should fix that. Also, there should be more than one viable list for each faction.

Small nitpick here...with 7 factions, the highest possible minimum representation for any faction is 1/7 or 14%. If every faction were equal, we'd get 14% for all of them. If one faction were at 25%, and everyone else were even, they'd all be at less than 11%.

10 hours ago, Micanthropyre said:

If FFG adjusts points frequently enough, will that solve the meta being stale because everyone is returning to the drawing board before the meta is established? Should they instead scale it back to once a year point changes, forcing people either to quit for the year or innovate? 

This answer probably changes depending on who you ask. Some people like spending XX games architecting a list to solve a matchup, some people like not having a stable meta for long enough that the matchup needs solving. Neither group of people is more correct than the other, it's just a preference.

That being said - point change/meta chaos is trending down, not up. We've got all the factions we're gonna get - two of our three waves so far added new ones! - at least until those rumored KoToR movies happen. 👀

We're therefore going from 2 new factions, 6-8 new ships a wave; to 0 new factions, 2-3 new ships a wave. And each new ship matters relatively less for the meta the more ships there are in the faction/format, unless it comes out the gate ludicrously OP.

And while point changes can always introduce new imbalances via changes made just for meta effects - like Leia - those are a small percent of total changes, so balance should trend up over time. All the bad stuff that got cheaper but is still bad will get cheaper again, good stuff that got nerfed but is still good might get nerfed again. Eventually it'll plateau with some static variation, but we're still probably in a higher level of imbalance than what will be the editions average over its lifecycle.

2 hours ago, FlyingAnchors said:

Have you heard the legend of Darth bumper the wise?

"Twice per game, don't skip your perform action step"

2 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

Are we grumpier than before?

I havent seen that. We are just more aware that FFG reads reddit and reviews player data.

Also there are more lists that exist so there are more opportunities to be mad.

Maybe people just complain to me more! This appears to be a me problem, from hearing you and @Jeff Wilder, haha

11 hours ago, Biophysical said:

I just think we haven't adapted to how we're going to talk about stuff. There's a shift needed, I think, to move from list conversations to archetype conversations, and we just don't know how to do it. 

This right here!

But we can't even properly define rebel beef, so it looks to me like the community really lacks some tools and concepts at the moment.

1 hour ago, Brunas said:

Maybe people just complain to me more! This appears to be a me problem, from hearing you and @Jeff Wilder, haha

Podcasted long enough to see yourself become a listener.

Well, so we established why we don't like Rebel Beef, we know that @Brunas is at the center of an unusually grumpy group of X-Wing veterans, we aren't sure what the answer to the meta problem of people just playing the current power list until points changes is or whether it is even a problem and we likely won't figure that out here, the goal of at least 2 lists per faction being competitive is actually a tall order, and 2E is the best X-wing ever despite the issues.

Welp, we can close up the thread folks, we've done it all. Nice chatting with you.

7 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

Podcasted long enough to see yourself become a listener.

Thus the circle is complete. Listener becomes the caster to only be the listener again.

34 minutes ago, Micanthropyre said:

Well, so we established why we don't like Rebel Beef, we know that @Brunas is at the center of an unusually grumpy group of X-Wing veterans, we aren't sure what the answer to the meta problem of people just playing the current power list until points changes is or whether it is even a problem and we likely won't figure that out here, the goal of at least 2 lists per faction being competitive is actually a tall order, and 2E is the best X-wing ever despite the issues.

Welp, we can close up the thread folks, we've done it all. Nice chatting with you.

Well...if history repeats itself, since Han and Phantoms has already happened again...Wave 4 brings Plasma Torps...maybe they can save us from the extra shield beef of the Rebels on top of likely points adjustments to the Rebels in July.

11 hours ago, Ablazoned said:

Small nitpick here...with 7 factions, the highest possible minimum representation for any faction is 1/7 or 14%. If every faction were equal, we'd get 14% for all of them. If one faction were at 25%, and everyone else were even, they'd all be at less than 11%.

No, I'm saying cut rate, not play rate. Generally, roughly 20% of the people make the cut at an event. Less if it's a System Open, with the 5-1 or better requirement, but more if it's a 16 player regional. I want to see all the factions make the cut at a reasonable rate. If one faction is only making the cut 5% of the time, but another is at 30%, that's a problem. I don't care as much that the faction play rates are 14%, give or take. Some factions are going to be more popular, and that's fine.

I guess the better way to phrase that is "Each faction makes the cut at the average rate, +/- 5%."

31 minutes ago, RStan said:

Well...if history repeats itself, since Han and Phantoms has already happened again...Wave 4 brings Plasma Torps...maybe they can save us from the extra shield beef of the Rebels on top of likely points adjustments to the Rebels in July.

Against B-wings, maybe on the opening salvo, but Y-wings only have 2 shields now and don’t much care if they’re plinked off.

Still, it should give some help to the ships that have a proton slot and aren’t exactly tearing up the meta at this point.

I feel like the real value in plasma torps is going to be nuking the shields off ships like the U-wing, or Fat Han.

2 minutes ago, FlyingAnchors said:

Against B-wings, maybe on the opening salvo, but Y-wings only have 2 shields now and don’t much care if they’re plinked off.

Still, it should give some help to the ships that have a proton slot and aren’t exactly tearing up the meta at this point.

I feel like the real value in plasma torps is going to be nuking the shields off ships like the U-wing, or Fat Han.

2.0 Plasmas eat the shield first. If you have a shield, you're going to care about that extra damage.

I think Plasma torps will be great for any meta in general(obviously depending on cost) becasue of one thing that is rare. Spamming = Less value, alot of upgrades (eg. Juke) gain more value the more of them you have, this creates a bland list building experience IMO so a upgrade that you usually only want one or two of is great for the game. Only your first ship shooting really wants this so on I6 ships such as Wedge and Dengar will have a much better use of the special ability then lower I ships.

A conditional extra damage on 3 dice isn't all that different from 4 dice. Plasma Torpedoes will all come down to cost.

50 minutes ago, skotothalamos said:

2.0 Plasmas eat the shield first. If you have a shield, you're going to care about that extra damage.

This is totally true, hit determination happens at the end of cancel results and before damage is dealt, and also totally worded in a terribly non-obvious way. I expect lots of fights about this from the massive contingent of the player base that "knows how to play" but has never actually read the rules reference

16 minutes ago, Makaze said:

This is totally true, hit determination happens at the end of cancel results and before damage is dealt, and also totally worded in a terribly non-obvious way. I expect lots of fights about this from the massive contingent of the player base that "knows how to play" but has never actually read the rules reference

I just looked it up to ensure I understand it.

2 minutes ago, gennataos said:

I just looked it up to ensure I understand it.

What is not Wisdom?

14 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

We are just more aware that FFG reads reddit

God save us all

15 hours ago, svelok said:

2.0 has a deficit of institutional knowledge, being only 8 months old and having experienced only a handful of metas in that time (eg: we've never had a 2.0 "big ship" meta)

Someone is quick to forget Parking Brake Han and Double Tap Dash.

There will always be Rebel Fat Turret Combos.

36 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

What is not Wisdom?

Refusing to acknowledge there is always more to learn.