5 hours ago, Cuz05 said:

Edit. Actually, regen is easy. What I hate is having points scored taken away again on the last turn. I've seen it decide games often, its a huge swing. I'm fine with regen keeping a ship alive and contributing but I absolutely believe that once you've got half points on something, those points should go in the bag, as it were. An RR update would sort that.

Have the inactive charges on the droid count as HP lost for points scored, but active charges not count towards total hull. Doesn't fix R2crew and Miranda though.

8 hours ago, Cuz05 said:

Edit. Actually, regen is easy. What I hate is having points scored taken away again on the last turn. I've seen it decide games often, its a huge swing. I'm fine with regen keeping a ship alive and contributing but I absolutely believe that once you've got half points on something, those points should go in the bag, as it were. An RR update would sort that.

Well you really don’t earn any points until the end of the game, and while it’s a guaranteed score that destroyed ships net you full value, if you allow your opponent to run away and regen so you don’t get half points, you didn’t really earn it, did you? (I know fat han needs addressing, doesn’t mean the entire idea behind it needs an overhaul).

1 hour ago, FlyingAnchors said:

If you allow your opponent to run away and regen so you don’t get half points, you didn’t really earn it, did you? (I know fat han needs addressing, doesn’t mean the entire idea behind it needs an overhaul).

Well, you earned it, but they earned it back by simply legging it and spending a minimum of 4pt on an upgrade, which is really not hard to do. Particularly with a Jedi. Spend a 2pt charge, 5 straight, roll, boost, gain 40 odd points in one turn.

If half points stays scored, it addresses Fat Han pretty handily too.

I do accept that you have to factor the regen into your play and make sure they can't get those points back, but it's not exactly a fun mechanic to combat or a particularly tricky one to use.

Regen keeping a ship alive, storing half points and keeping crits off its back is enough of a benefit imo.

It is on my mind atm since an R2 Wedge lifting himself back to full points on the last 2 turns was a factor in my loss last night. Had nothing to do with being outplayed of course..... I wasn't on the back foot the whole game at all.... didn't make categorically bad approach choices....

Quite a bit of the last paragraph is a lie. But still. Nerf my feelsbadman. Let me halfarse a win!

R2Dcrew means that you have to put in a whole 1 extra damage to make sure your half points stick

Sunday I finally managed to attend an Hyperspace Trial, I went undefeated until I had to concede the final due to being too late

Wedge, Cassian, Braylen + 1 B is a ****** list that feel like it can be stopped only by its own red dice variance, but maybe it's just me.

@GreenDragoon After almost a week of whipping people, I got a list fortress entry only missing 2 lists, I hope it can be added to your pool https://listfortress.com/tournaments/654

52 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

Sunday I finally managed to attend an Hyperspace Trial, I went undefeated until I had to concede the final due to being too late

Wedge, Cassian, Braylen + 1 B is a ****** list that feel like it can be stopped only by its own red dice variance, but maybe it's just me.

@GreenDragoon After almost a week of whipping people, I got a list fortress entry only missing 2 lists, I hope it can be added to your pool https://listfortress.com/tournaments/654

Somebody needs to introduce the natural predator of Beef to Italy. TIE Swarm to victory

2 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

Somebody needs to introduce the natural predator of Beef to Italy. TIE Swarm to victory

Or Upsilons...

No one wants to play TIE swarms.

People *do* want to play rebel beef.

...

...

It makes sense, somehow.

5 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

No one wants to play TIE swarms.

People *do* want to play rebel beef.

...

...

It makes sense, somehow.

Beef has variety (different ship types, fan favorite pilots, etc), interesting interactions, more forgiving/less mentally taxing, etc.

TIE swarm is so monotonous that even as an Imperial player I have no interest in sitting down and using 6-7 of the same ship over the course of a tournament.

8 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

No one wants to play TIE swarms.

People *do* want to play rebel beef.

...

...

It makes sense, somehow.

Why do people keep saying that?

It's the #2 archetype since mid February, #3 since mid March, # since mid April.

12 minutes ago, svelok said:

Or Upsilons...

This seemed more of a territorial competitor than a predator... Could be my playstyle is a little more successful against them though.

2 minutes ago, gennataos said:

Why do people keep saying that?

It's the #2 archetype since mid February, #3 since mid March, # since mid April.

It's popularity is far, far less than rebel beef "variants".

"variants" of rebel beef are the most generous use of the word "variety"

Also, filter by actual events - I dont care what happens at store kits.

Additional post, versus edit:

That said - boy does it win far 'better' than rebel beef. ooo-eee.

3 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

It's popularity is far, far less than rebel beef "variants".

"variants" of rebel beef are the most generous use of the word "variety"

Also, filter by actual events - I dont care what happens at store kits.

Filtering by Hyperspace trials, it's #1 since February, still #3 since March and April. I does drop off for Extended, but I figure there are reasons for that.

I dunno, I just keep hearing "No one is running TIE swarm", but people are. Maybe not in the numbers that, competitively, would make sense, but it's nowhere close to "no one".

2 minutes ago, gennataos said:

Filtering by Hyperspace trials, it's #1 since February, still #3 since March and April. I does drop off for Extended, but I figure there are reasons for that.

I dunno, I just keep hearing "No one is running TIE swarm", but people are. Maybe not in the numbers that, competitively, would make sense, but it's nowhere close to "no one".

as long as you actually consider the 4 ship rebel lists as truly different... sure.

I don't.

And when I say "no one" - I mean "not enough people relative to it's power level" because my hypothesis is people dont actually like to play it.

To be clear, I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm just not sure what people are meaning when they say "No one is running X" sometimes.

Just now, Tlfj200 said:

And when I say "no one" - I mean "not enough people relative to it's power level" because my hypothesis is people dont actually like to play it.

That explains it and makes sense.

Just now, Tlfj200 said:

as long as you actually consider the 4 ship rebel lists as truly different... sure.

I don't.

And when I say "no one" - I mean "not enough people relative to it's power level" because my hypothesis is people dont actually like to play it.

One note, due to the health and cost of the average Rebel fighter, you're going to see a lot more four-ship Rebel lists than anything else simply due to player faction lines. If you're lumping them all together (which, is not necessarily wrong) you're going to get a slight skewed picture. When you break it down, Rebel lists are pretty much four major categories:

• Fat turret
• Trench Run
• Rebel Beef (four ship)
• Outlier (really weird stuff)

That said, it seems most Imperial players don't like TIE swarms. They want their aces. Following the power curve I nearly took a TIE swarm to a Trial myself, I just found I was making too many of the wrong choices in the late game and it was costing me wins. It's a great and powerful list, I love the initial engage, but it is underutilized (probably a good thing) and you're not wrong that a lot of people don't seem to like it.

Just now, gennataos said:

That explains it and makes sense.

I haven't updated our numbers (partially because I dont care), but when I checked, rebel beef, the archetype, was somewhere in the 25-30% of all swiss.

TIE swarm was like 9%.

Analyzing how those two lists do, and that TIE swarms lolbeats rebel beef.... whaaat is happening?

1 minute ago, LagJanson said:

One note, due to the health and cost of the average Rebel fighter, you're going to see a lot more four-ship Rebel lists than anything else simply due to player faction lines. If you're lumping them all together (which, is not necessarily wrong) you're going to get a slight skewed picture. When you break it down, Rebel lists are pretty much four major categories:

• Fat turret
• Trench Run
• Rebel Beef (four ship)
• Outlier (really weird stuff)

That said, it seems most Imperial players don't like TIE swarms. They want their aces. Following the power curve I nearly took a TIE swarm to a Trial myself, I just found I was making too many of the wrong choices in the late game and it was costing me wins. It's a great and powerful list, I love the initial engage, but it is underutilized (probably a good thing) and you're not wrong that a lot of people don't seem to like it.

Perhaps, but the key component is it all feels very the same. They play very much the same.

That's why I consider it an archetype as much as I consider "tie swarm" an archetype (I dont care which TIEs you brought, even if I do have an opinion on which build is 'optimal' or 'best' - it's still a TIE swarm).

If you had to guess...what hyperspace ships would definitely go up or down in cost next pt adjust?

Definitely Up:

• B-Wing
• RZ2A

Definitely Down:

• Tie FO
• Star Fortress
• Resistance YT-1300
• Named Torrents

Lots of stuff in the maybe up or down category as well but im interested in sure bets.

The Regen droid’s have 2-3 charges, that’s like having 2-3 Evade tokens in a game, but you have to have a weapons disabled token to use it. I don’t see that as a problem. R2-D2 Crew is a problem especially because the downside is mitigated through a Pilot ability and we start to have combowing take effect.

1 minute ago, Quack Shot said:

The Regen droid’s have 2-3 charges, that’s like having 2-3 Evade tokens in a game, but you have to have a weapons disabled token to use it. I don’t see that as a problem. R2-D2 Crew is a problem especially because the downside is mitigated through a Pilot ability and we start to have combowing take effect.

R2s incur that token, R5s don't.

I don't think it's too surprising. These are probably the big influences:

1. Faction Lines - People like picking a faction and going with it. Rebel beef aligns with what has been pretty standard rebel style even back to 1.0 days. For imperial's it's been traditionally ace play so the swarm doesn't align. I think if the meta was inverted and we had imperial aces versus rebel aces at the top we'd be wondering why so few rebel lists were appearing.

2. Cost - TIE Swarm just costs more and based on typical collections people won't have that many of one ship. The rebel beef rarely has more than two of the same model so most people have it ready to go without having to borrow or buy more ships.

3. Fun - The majority of people bring what they'll feel the most engaged with or identify with playing. TIE swarm just doesn't seem to excite people.

I think if a higher percentage of people were more about winning than flying their favorite spaceships/faction/pilots then the TIE swarm would be higher.

20 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

R2s incur that token, R5s don't.

R5’s are also much worse

My regen gripe is quite specific. It's having a good, close game that comes down to the last turn or 2. Then the easy decision for one player to just run and regen a quarter of their list for a clear win. It seems anti-gameplay to me, also a couple of the others that I regularly play with.

But I don't want to bang a drum or come across as having a major problem with it. I love 2.0 and embrace the challenges that the most broken and *NPE* combo's toss up, I enjoy it all. Seems no one here sees it as any kind of issue, that's fine by me, it tells me it's much more a personal peeve than an actual problem. I need to welcome it and deal with it.

It's not even something that has impacted in more than a couple of my own games. I have seen it decide a number of others in a pretty much mutual shrug of yeah, meh, well, that's what happens now. It's a bit rubbish. Unexciting.