8 hours ago, Brunas said:

I mean, I'm with Jeff - there's a reason we don't have things over i4 with slam.

Other than black one, which is obscenely powerful.

8 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

I'll mostly agree to that.

While powerful, I don't think SLAM rises to the level of a problem as it exists in the game right now, but that's because FFG has been careful to keep it from being a problem.

I mean, yeah. I Agree (tm). If you could slam at I5 or I6 as a regular action, it's busted and I don't want to live in that world. Luckily, we don't.

We still live in a world where Sun Fac will exist. And I'm still concerned about Anakin in a Y-Wing, which is completely independent of positioning.

I6, non-Force user, no bomb slot, a red SLAM action, and some method of disarm mitigation like Black One or gunboat configs

Inherently broken or not?

20 minutes ago, PaulRuddSays said:

I mean, yeah. I Agree (tm). If you could slam at I5 or I6 as a regular action, it's busted and I don't want to live in that world. Luckily, we don't.

We still live in a world where Sun Fac will exist. And I'm still concerned about Anakin in a Y-Wing, which is completely independent of positioning.

I go back and forth over whether an Init 6 Miranda would even be that bad. I'm not calling for a buff, to be sure, but rather a thought experiment.

If she kept the same standard loadout of Hotshot Gunner and Bomblet Generator, but was Init 6, she'd be a pest with high-init token stripping, a frustrating-to-kill ship which can maybe dance away when in danger or regen when safe, and low-enough damage that probably no one really cares. However, she'd still have a Torpedo slot, and an Init 6 Proton Torps Miranda--even without 5 dice double-modded ordnance from 1e--is probably unhealthy.

So I don't necessarily feel that Init 5/6 in a SLAM ships is necessarily a problem in itself: it'll be greatly contingent on what else that ship can do. Does it have Torpedoes? Does SLAM actually disarm it? What moves are on the dial? What kind of support effects can it provide?

5 hours ago, svelok said:

First Order, get down from there.

I find the weekly (daily) posts/comments on Reddit about how FO is unplayable and/or FFG has an anti-FO agenda hilarious. Even if we just count the ships that are being played, that faction has a really strong selection of options, especially considering how few ships there are. Not to mention that there are some real sleeper hits in FO that people aren't really playing widely. Strong faction to get acquainted with for the future if, like me, you're planning around things like Leia or TIE Phantoms not being nearly so viable come July.

28 minutes ago, DoubleDown11 said:

I find the weekly (daily) posts/comments on Reddit about how FO is unplayable and/or FFG has an anti-FO agenda hilarious. Even if we just count the ships that are being played, that faction has a really strong selection of options, especially considering how few ships there are. Not to mention that there are some real sleeper hits in FO that people aren't really playing widely. Strong faction to get acquainted with for the future if, like me, you're planning around things like Leia or TIE Phantoms not being nearly so viable come July.

FO has a lot of garbage too is the issue- TIE/fo's in particular.

1 minute ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

FO has a lot of garbage too is the issue- TIE/fo's in particular.

Well that's because of FFG's anti-FO agenda, obviously.

Honestly though, that's a fair point. Scorch is pretty good though, Null can be a strong option in an appropriate list, and Muse is very good in specific lists as well (supporting something like Pattern Analyzer Tavson for instance). I'm not convinced that most of the other named pilots don't have a role either (aside from Static, who is truly terrible, and Midnight, who I think rarely earns her points in a list). Rivas and TN-3465 are fine but outclassed for most lists' purposes in general. I do not know what sort of list wants to use the generics (please, hold all Captain Cardinal jokes) or Commander Malarus. Stacking a bunch of Fanatical TIE/fo's probably isn't the worst idea in the world, but it's also probably not in the top 50% of ideas either...

I honestly think there are decent (or at least playable) lists with most of the above pilots, but it's hard to justify exploring them when there are clearly superior options in general. This also applies to the non-Kylo Silencers too.

But all of that is just my opinion, and I've been horribly wrong many times before (like the time I pre-ordered four Inquisitor's TIE because for some reason I thought quad Sienar Test Pilots was going to be wonderful or something???). Your First Order mileage will vary.

5 hours ago, PaulRuddSays said:

I mean, yeah. I Agree (tm). If you could slam at I5 or I6 as a regular action, it's busted and I don't want to live in that world. Luckily, we don't.

if it's not okay at i5&6, then why is it okay at i4 or less?

1 hour ago, jagsba said:

if it's not okay at i5&6, then why is it okay at i4 or less?

because taking an i5 / 6 is fairly easy for every faction. But also: Is it Okay? Is the SLAM action OK? Is the Runewars dial system objectively superior?

6 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

So I don't necessarily feel that Init 5/6 in a SLAM ships is necessarily a problem in itself: it'll be greatly contingent on what else that ship can do. Does it have Torpedoes? Does SLAM actually disarm it? What moves are on the dial? What kind of support effects can it provide?

Add in "How Many Points can it be worth / how much damage does it take when it slams" to the conversation on determining O.K. I think. If it can be worth 100+pts and take no damage that's probably a problem.

15 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

The other 50% of the remaining 70% of the time you basically have to see the matrix against some Aces moving after you or find the aces players that will joust your tavson for no apparent reason. (Hint thats the vast majority of aces players).

I'm surprised more people don't have the playbook on Tavson. I'm guessing a lot of folks haven't played against him yet.

6 minutes ago, gennataos said:

I'm surprised more people don't have the playbook on Tavson. I'm guessing a lot of folks haven't played against him yet.

There's been enough posted about Tavson that I was able to strategize on the fly last weekend. Refused to give Tavson the pleasure of modified shots until my entire list was behind him and then removed him in two turns.

I will admit, it's fighting instincts to choose not to fire into Tavson's face.

14 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

There's been enough posted about Tavson that I was able to strategize on the fly last weekend. Refused to give Tavson the pleasure of modified shots until my entire list was behind him and then removed him in two turns.

I will admit, it's fighting instincts to choose not to fire into Tavson's face.

That’s why with tavson you learn to target lock for your action, wink and say you really don’t want to shoot me or focus as your first action, reinforce still works well after the first attack. But at least your not wasting 4-5 dice attacks on whether or not your opponent understands the game your playing

7 hours ago, Do I need a Username said:

Add in "How Many Points can it be worth / how much damage does it take when it slams" to the conversation on determining O.K. I think. If it can be worth 100+pts and take no damage that's probably a problem.

9 hours ago, jagsba said:

if it's not okay at i5&6, then why is it okay at i4 or less?

My thought was in line with the above - points fortressing is bad, and would be trivial if you can do your damage and NOPE out for the rest of the game. It’s one thing to Anakin out like @Brunas did, but at least he has to mostly go in the direction his dial pointed.

For another example, we all know that there’s a very real difference between the Sigma Squadron Ace and Whisper. If I wanted a Phantom and had room for the Sigma but not Whisper,* you can be sure that I’ll find the points.

*assuming I’m not looking at quad phantoms.

7 hours ago, Do I need a Username said:

Add in "How Many Points can it be worth / how much damage does it take when it slams" to the conversation on determining O.K. I think. If it can be worth 100+pts and take no damage that's probably a problem.

Fair.

Point Fortress-ing isn't part of everyone's typical X-Wing experience, but it is an important consideration in the overall X-Wing ecosystem.

Haven't thought it through that much, but SLAM seems like the kind of thing which is probably safer for more casual games, than competitive ones. SLAM excels as a tool for running away, and this is hugely impactful when the objective of the game is to protect points within a time limit. If the context for a hypothetical Init 6 SLAM isn't tournament play, but casually playing without a clock until one player is entirely destroyed, shrug.

Honestly, the problem isn't SNR, SLAM or other high Init double re-positioning. Its that the game's win condition is still easily gamed, allowing high PS point-fortressing killing/running to be a legitimate tactic. There is no reason for someone to get stuck in.

#bringbackobjectiveplay

8 hours ago, Do I need a Username said:

because taking an i5 / 6 is fairly easy for every faction. But also: Is it Okay? Is the SLAM action OK? Is the Runewars dial system objectively superior?

We've just accepted that the game funnels us toward the top I pilots. SLAM decreases list variety (maybe not right now but if a SLAMing ship because big enough in the meta, it functionally eliminates the viability of all lower I ships)

48 minutes ago, PaulRuddSays said:

My thought was in line with the above - points fortressing is bad, and would be trivial if you can do your damage and NOPE out for the rest of the game. It’s one thing to Anakin out like @Brunas did, but at least he has to mostly go in the direction his dial pointed.

Trivial because you'd move last. Why is it not okay to move after every ship with SLAM but okay when it's after most ships?

1 hour ago, jagsba said:

We've just accepted that the game funnels us toward the top I pilots. SLAM decreases list variety (maybe not right now but if a SLAMing ship because big enough in the meta, it functionally eliminates the viability of all lower I ships)

Trivial because you'd move last. Why is it not okay to move after every ship with SLAM but okay when it's after most ships?

I don’t like fighting straw man arguments about what could be if hypothetical options were available.

We have tons of other, closer to reality questions we can ask instead, like, did the points drops in the last update actually fix the problem we had with initiative pricing compression or just hide it? Will we be stuck in another ace meta with the Nantex release as everyone tries to avoid I4 action-less tractors?

2 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

SLAM excels as a tool for running away, and this is hugely impactful when the objective of the game is to protect points within a time limit.

I think this discounts about half the value of SLAM. It’s hugely valuable as a control element (in the beatdown sense)... for instance, last night I brought Hatchetman to the local store. My opponent botched his Whisper play, so I slammed onto the other corner of the board and took out his endgame piece in turn 4.

Slam is great for threatening a lot of board space, but people remember the sweet moves a lot more than they remember guessing a Slam in the wrong direction and taking unanswered shots.

9 minutes ago, PaulRuddSays said:

Will we be stuck in another ace meta with the Nantex release as everyone tries to avoid I4 action-less tractors?

🤨That is not how Nantex + Ensnare works... Even getting the token to have to pass off via Ensnare (which has it's own range, 0-1, and arc reqs) requires the Nantex perform a Rotate action. Even with high initiative on a Nantex it is going require predicting a turn or two before where you're going to want the turret arc due to the lock out of current arc ingrained into Rotate. Stress also shuts it off since you have to be able to do a Rotate action to even get the tractor token.

Since it is a bit blurry: " Pinpoint Tractor Array: You cannot rotate your turret arc to your rear arc. After you execute a maneuver, you may gain 1 tractor token to perform a rotate action."

1 minute ago, Hiemfire said:

🤨That is not how Nantex + Ensnare works... Even getting the token to have to pass off via Ensnare (which has it's own range, 0-1, and arc reqs) requires the Nantex perform a Rotate action. Even with high initiative on a Nantex it is going require predicting a turn or two before where you're going to want the turret arc due to the lock out of current arc ingrained into Rotate. Stress also shuts it off since you have to be able to do a Rotate action to even get the tractor token.

Since it is a bit blurry: " Pinpoint Tractor Array: You cannot rotate your turret arc to your rear arc. After you execute a maneuver, you may gain 1 tractor token to perform a rotate action."

Erm... it doesn’t say “fully execute,” so you can do it after bumping, right? I take your point, but if I can do it after bumping, or do it and focus, then it seems like it’s a duck.

I didn’t say it was skill-less... I think we’ll see a lot of bad Nantex play, but that’s true of anything.

27 minutes ago, PaulRuddSays said:

I don’t like fighting straw man arguments about what could be if hypothetical options were available.

you asked why people thought SLAM was a problem. The hypothetical option is to make a point. It's clearly broken at i6 because it removes the agency of everything beneath it. The next logical step is that it's broken at any init since it removes the agency of everything beneath it, its just masked by the fact that some things move after it. That's not a hypothetical. That's a thing that's in the game.

27 minutes ago, PaulRuddSays said:

We have tons of other, closer to reality questions we can ask instead, like, did the points drops in the last update actually fix the problem we had with initiative pricing compression or just hide it? Will we be stuck in another ace meta with the Nantex release as everyone tries to avoid I4 action-less tractors?

i mean, it just hid it and yeah we're totally going to go back into an ace meta. But i can be concerned about multiple things, and I figure the populace will push back against the nantex when it comes out, so I don't need to bother.

8 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

🤨That is not how Nantex + Ensnare works... Even getting the token to have to pass off via Ensnare (which has it's own range, 0-1, and arc reqs) requires the Nantex perform a Rotate action. Even with high initiative on a Nantex it is going require predicting a turn or two before where you're going to want the turret arc due to the lock out of current arc ingrained into Rotate. Stress also shuts it off since you have to be able to do a Rotate action to even get the tractor token.

Since it is a bit blurry: " Pinpoint Tractor Array: You cannot rotate your turret arc to your rear arc. After you execute a maneuver, you may gain 1 tractor token to perform a rotate action."

I don't really see it being all that much of a problem to get off. The dial is excellent so stress is unlikely to be a concern, it can't be blocked, given the R0-1 restriction there will be a lot of instances where the ship is in more than one arc making the facing restriction less problematic. I don't doubt it will require a bit of practice to get the hang of but nothing about it strikes me as actually difficult

13 minutes ago, PaulRuddSays said:

Erm... it doesn’t say “fully execute,” so you can do it after bumping, right? I take your point, but if I can do it after bumping, or do it and focus, then it seems like it’s a duck.

Partially executing is treated as Executing the maneuver so yes, still there is more counter play there than your post had implied.

14 minutes ago, PaulRuddSays said:

I think this discounts about half the value of SLAM. It’s hugely valuable as a control element (in the beatdown sense)... for instance, last night I brought Hatchetman to the local store. My opponent botched his Whisper play, so I slammed onto the other corner of the board and took out his endgame piece in turn 4.

Slam is great for threatening a lot of board space, but people remember the sweet moves a lot more than they remember guessing a Slam in the wrong direction and taking unanswered shots.

I feel like I'm being taken out of context, but only if you're also a mind-reader who knows what I'm thinking and not just what I typed. I can't fault you for that.

To be sure, Gunboats can use SLAM offensively, but that's not something every ship can do.

I got to that particular point through an Init 6 Miranda thought experiment, trying to look at the balance of SLAM in an abstract sense. To be sure, a gunboat can take instant advantage of position from SLAM to deal damage. That's not true of anyone else, where while SLAM can get you into good position, your opponent will have a turn to plot a maneuver of their own and react. Without a means to ignore Weapons Disabled like OS-1, XG-1, or Black One, SLAM is a long-term positional tool without immediate damage.

That tradeoff of all damage for position seems like the kind of thing which is wicked fair if the game ends at total list destruction, but is more likely to be an issue if playing the clock.

//

But I suppose that of the three ships in the game right now which can SLAM, two of them can SLAM and attack in the same round, so maybe thinking of SLAM in an abstract sense as something which shuts off your damage isn't the right frame.

Its always combinations of things that seem busted. SLAM on its own is fine.

Free SLAM with higher Init and shooting anyway is taking the p*** a bit. Free SLAM run away and regen point fortress is a massive bag of b*ll*cks. These are other issues than just SLAM.

Huge repositions at higher Init is many topics in itself.

Run away regen point fortress... just... I don't even want to acknowledge it's filthy presence.

Solutions to these 2 things are... problematic. And they're not a lot to do with actual SLAMming.

Edit. Actually, regen is easy. What I hate is having points scored taken away again on the last turn. I've seen it decide games often, its a huge swing. I'm fine with regen keeping a ship alive and contributing but I absolutely believe that once you've got half points on something, those points should go in the bag, as it were. An RR update would sort that.

Random thought: if Redline lost the torp slot but bumped his primary to 3, would he be worth it at the current cost? Atm, he seems like a sh*ttier version of an ARC, unless you don't mind shelling Darth Vader points for double modded torps.

Not complaining, just musing. He goes from undercosted to #neveragain. Just like Han gunner.

Now where's that Leia increase, hmmmmmmm.🤣