Ok I might have exaggerated a bit.
Some Han Players are good at X-Wing.
Carolina Krayts is the best X-Wing podcast
5 hours ago, svelok said:Cassian (with Leia) + Braylen + 2 other things seems to be exploding in popularity.
The poles seem to call this specific build "Rebel Bunker"? Which is a cool name and I think a useful one because this specific flavor of Leia beef seems to be quite potent and quite successful.
4 hours ago, Biophysical said:That's what won the Trial I played in yesterday. I made my best effort to defeat it, and failed.
4 hours ago, Dreadai said:It’s great against everything but phantoms.
Oh, you mean the entirely hyperspace legal rebel list that competes at the highest edges of extended, and only stuff like quad phantoms, the List of the People, competes consistently against it.
...why has my thoughts on extended vs hyperspace flipped again...?
1 hour ago, Tlfj200 said:only stuff like quad phantoms, the List of the People, competes consistently against it.
So...talking about Rebel Beef Stew.
- Able to joust and rinse and repeat and usually be correct.
- The white K-Turns punishes most things that attempt to disengage, or think that they can.
- It has reasonable matchups against the field.
- Tends to reach the end game with a 2 v 1.
- Doesn't often lose a gun on the 1st engage.
- Has solid offensive modification across 3 of the 4 ships.
- Removes stress to open dials up round to round.
- Able to approach in a loose formation.
- Bullies "normal" aces a bit.
- Pre-movement Reposition or enough HP to trade a shot or two helps.
- Vulnerable to blocking sometimes.
- Range control for partial engagements helps.
- Sometimes players run it in a full box formation and get punished for it.
- Helps if Wedge is destroyed quickly, followed by Cassian.
Its a solid archetype that performs very consistently in Hyperspace, I get that. But im still not willing to say it makes Extended feel better balanced. Leia up 4-5, Cassian and Braylen maybe up 2? Not sure anything else is to far off from where it needs to be. Should also mention I find stuff like Luke, Wedge, Braylen, Jake to be pretty entertaining/effective. Kinda hope these Leia Less variants are still relevant in some way after the next pt change. Its probably the only version of Rebels I have ever actually had an interest in playing.
Edited by Boom OwlWhat if the U-wing was just removed from Hyperspace? Is Leia still a problem? It seems most of the problems come from being able to bring a real ship with Leia while sill having a lot points. +4 from an X seems pretty cheap, and I'm not sure if that's Leia being 2 or the U being +2. Like X-wings are still better spammed* but the U-wing feels like you either need at least one or are flying some ace based ****.
*I'm not actually sure, but the medium base feels like it's harder to make use of spammed.
9 hours ago, Boom Owl said:Ok I might have exaggerated a bit.
Some Han Players are good at X-Wing.
You mean Duncan is good at X-Wing. Though I take a little pride in that the only time I've beat him was when I was feeding him lists to practice against.
9 hours ago, Boom Owl said:So...talking about Rebel Beef Stew.
- Able to joust and rinse and repeat and usually be correct.
- The white K-Turns punishes most things that attempt to disengage, or think that they can.
- It has reasonable matchups against the field.
- Tends to reach the end game with a 2 v 1.
- Doesn't often lose a gun on the 1st engage.
- Has solid offensive modification across 3 of the 4 ships.
- Removes stress to open dials up round to round.
- Able to approach in a loose formation.
- Bullies "normal" aces a bit.
- Pre-movement Reposition or enough HP to trade a shot or two helps.
- Vulnerable to blocking sometimes.
- Range control for partial engagements helps.
- Sometimes players run it in a full box formation and get punished for it.
- Helps if Wedge is destroyed quickly, followed by Cassian.
Its a solid archetype that performs very consistently in Hyperspace, I get that. But im still not willing to say it makes Extended feel better balanced. Leia up 4-5, Cassian and Braylen maybe up 2? Not sure anything else is to far off from where it needs to be. Should also mention I find stuff like Luke, Wedge, Braylen, Jake to be pretty entertaining/effective. Kinda hope these Leia Less variants are still relevant in some way after the next pt change. Its probably the only version of Rebels I have ever actually had an interest in playing.
oh, my assertion isnt that it makes extended better balanced - it's that at least I have OP toys in extended to compete, if I wish to play.
I want it all torn down, but until it is, I want off the hyperspace ride.
10 hours ago, Tlfj200 said:
Oh, you mean the entirely hyperspace legal rebel list that competes at the highest edges of extended, and only stuff like quad phantoms, the List of the People, competes consistently against it.
...why has my thoughts on extended vs hyperspace flipped again...?
I mean, I did compete against it. I just lost. Aren't you always arguing against outcome based reasoning?
Just now, Biophysical said:I mean, I did compete against it. I just lost. Aren't you always arguing against outcome based reasoning?
I am.
But the data also supports it? As well as it my personal preference of simply finding that style of play immensely boring, separately from its power level.
4 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:I am.
But the data also supports it? As well as it my personal preference of simply finding that style of play immensely boring, separately from its power level.
Ok.
13 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:oh, my assertion isnt that it makes extended better balanced - it's that at least I have OP toys in extended to compete, if I wish to play.
I want it all torn down, but until it is, I want off the hyperspace ride.
It's funny that this was basically my argument for Extended pre points change. I had statedcthat i dodnt trust FFG to balance Hyperspace, and contended that if an overpowering squad emerges in Hyperspace, there's a much smaller pool of cards to draw a viable counter from. I was largely told that this was a silly view to hold.
Can...this not happen again?
16 minutes ago, Biophysical said:It's funny that this was basically my argument for Extended pre points change. I had statedcthat i dodnt trust FFG to balance Hyperspace, and contended that if an overpowering squad emerges in Hyperspace, there's a much smaller pool of cards to draw a viable counter from. I was largely told that this was a silly view to hold.
I mean, I'm acknowledging that I'm changing my opinion based on new data and experiences. *shrug*
17 minutes ago, Biophysical said:Ok.
Ok ok?
4 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:I mean, I'm acknowledging that I'm changing my opinion based on new data and experiences. *shrug*
Ok ok?
Huh. Wasnt meaning to say just "ok". I had something else there and got distracted by actual job. Don't remember what it was now. Sad.
Just now, Biophysical said:Huh. Wasnt meaning to say just "ok". I had something else there and got distracted by actual job. Don't remember what it was now. Sad.
Gottem?
1 minute ago, Biophysical said:Huh. Wasnt meaning to say just "ok". I had something else there and got distracted by actual job. Don't remember what it was now. Sad.
Ok.
7 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:Gottem?
dun been got.
Red Raccoon and Redcap hyperspace trials are now complete in listfortress. Looks like Sentry Box trial is, too.
Common Ground Games in the UK is missing a lot of lists, if anyone has a lead on those: https://listfortress.com/tournaments/603
Gaming Goat in Minnesota has all the lists for 3-3 and above, but all the scores below that are missing, and none are in TTO. If you know 'em... : https://listfortress.com/tournaments/601
Reno has all 30 lists in TTO, but none made it over to listfortress. I just finished typing up the orphans from Red Raccoon and I'm lazy/tired but here's the links if somebody wants to take the initiative:
https://tabletop.to/hyperspace-trial-2019/lists
https://listfortress.com/tournaments/600
48 minutes ago, Biophysical said:smaller pool of cards to draw a viable counter from.
Arbitrary Top 20 "List Archetypes" Rebel Beef is 8 of the lists?
Current Hyperspace Meta:
- Howl/Iden Swarm
- AAAAA
- XXUY
- BBXY
- BBUX
- BUXX
- Ani + Delta + 2x Torrent
- BUXY
- Vader + Soontir + 2x Bomber
- Vader + Soontir + Duchess
- Obi + 3x Arc
- Ani + Jedi + Arc
- Tie Salad
- UXYY
- Maul Dooku ( CIS Haters )
- BBUY
- Vader + Soontir + Vermiel
- UXXX
- Han + Wedge + Y
- Quad Resistance
You get that sinking "well thats a ton of HP" feeling when its across from you but it doesn't seem to cross into "hopefully they just mess up" territory.
Only Hyperspace Matchups I haven't 100% enjoyed are AAAAA & Han but thats more about my own bias against how many options Rear/Side Arc Boost Mods at i5+ requires you to solve for.
1 minute ago, Boom Owl said:Arbitrary Top 20 "List Archetypes" Rebel Beef is 8 of the lists?
Current Hyperspace Meta:
- Howl/Iden Swarm
- AAAAA
- XXUY
- BBXY
- BBUX
- BUXX
- Ani + Delta + 2x Torrent
- BUXY
- Vader + Soontir + 2x Bomber
- Vader + Soontir + Duchess
- Obi + 3x Arc
- Ani + Jedi + Arc
- Tie Salad
- UXYY
- Maul Dooku ( CIS Haters )
- BBUY
- Vader + Soontir + Vermiel
- UXXX
- Han + Wedge + Y
- Quad Resistance
You get that sinking "well thats a ton of HP" feeling when its across from you but it doesn't seem to cross into "hopefully they just mess up" territory.
Only Hyperspace Matchups I haven't always enjoyed are AAAAA & Han but thats more about my own bias against how many options Rear/Side Arc Boost Mods at i5+ requires you to solve for.
I agree. I find AAAAA and Han much more annoying than the various beef builds. My game I lost in the Hyerpsace Trial finals vs Beef I was hard on the variance receiving end early in the game, and even in the end game I had a chance to win if I only take three damage from a three dice attack.
10 hours ago, Boom Owl said:So...talking about Rebel Beef Stew.
- Able to joust and rinse and repeat and usually be correct.
- The white K-Turns punishes most things that attempt to disengage, or think that they can.
- It has reasonable matchups against the field.
- Tends to reach the end game with a 2 v 1.
- Doesn't often lose a gun on the 1st engage.
- Has solid offensive modification across 3 of the 4 ships.
- Removes stress to open dials up round to round.
- Able to approach in a loose formation.
- Bullies "normal" aces a bit.
- Pre-movement Reposition or enough HP to trade a shot or two helps.
- Vulnerable to blocking sometimes.
- Range control for partial engagements helps.
- Sometimes players run it in a full box formation and get punished for it.
- Helps if Wedge is destroyed quickly, followed by Cassian.
Its a solid archetype that performs very consistently in Hyperspace, I get that. But im still not willing to say it makes Extended feel better balanced. Leia up 4-5, Cassian and Braylen maybe up 2? Not sure anything else is to far off from where it needs to be. Should also mention I find stuff like Luke, Wedge, Braylen, Jake to be pretty entertaining/effective. Kinda hope these Leia Less variants are still relevant in some way after the next pt change. Its probably the only version of Rebels I have ever actually had an interest in playing.
Braylen was mote expensive before the points drop. Nobody used him. Nobody used U-Wings either. Leia is the problem, not the ships.
2 minutes ago, Porkchop Express said:Braylen was mote expensive before the points drop. Nobody used him. Nobody used U-Wings either. Leia is the problem, not the ships.
That assumes they wouldn't be used now at old points, with everything else still playing on new points.
I feel perversly vindicated that you guys are finally starting to see how boring is to play HS in a meta inflated by properly built rebel beef (which for me means Wedge/Cassian/Braylen + 1, possibily a generic B or Biggs, maaaaybe a Y but definitely not an A-wing or another X that's not Biggs).
It's not unbeatable and 2.0 have seen even more broken lists so far (Whisper Redline Soontir for example), but in the hyperspace context it's quite oppressive. Again, I think it's just the increased importance of dice variance that's making feel like list building power levels are closer than they actually are
Your metas were way more wholesome than mine since it took so long to catch up, for myself I can't wait for the point changes and the end of hyperspace season
37 minutes ago, svelok said:Reno has all 30 lists in TTO, but none made it over to listfortress. I just finished typing up the orphans from Red Raccoon and I'm lazy/tired but here's the links if somebody wants to take the initiative:
https://tabletop.to/hyperspace-trial-2019/lists
https://listfortress.com/tournaments/600
if you're going to do it, please remember the "import from TTT" option in listfortress. Will save 100% of the work, and give matchup data!
Just now, Sunitsa said:I feel perversly vindicated that you guys are finally starting to see how boring is to play HS in a meta inflated by properly built rebel beef (which for me means Wedge/Cassian/Braylen + 1, possibily a generic B or Biggs, maaaaybe a Y but definitely not an A-wing or another X that's not Biggs).
It's not unbeatable and 2.0 have seen even more broken lists so far (Whisper Redline Soontir for example), but in the hyperspace context it's quite oppressive. Again, I think it's just the increased importance of dice variance that's making feel like list building power levels are closer than they actually are
Your metas were way more wholesome than mine since it took so long to catch up, for myself I can't wait for the point changes and the end of hyperspace season
Hmm. Cassian + Braylen (or generic Bs) weren't options before the, frankly really stupid, additions to hyperspace. I dispute "your metas were way more wholesome than mine" - unless you were literally playing in the future.
1 minute ago, Sunitsa said:Your metas were way more wholesome than mine since it took so long to catch up
For the last time...there is absolutely nothing special, unique, interesting, forward thinking or insightful about European Snow Flakes vs every other country’s Snow Flakes.
We all play the same game. Its not like there is a European jank only version of list fortress.
I have eyes and can read Europes tournament results to.