2 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

I feel like an under-discussed weakness of Vultures is the slow turn-around moves. It's going to be pretty hard to clear a scrum and get guns-on-target with only 1K and 2_Tallon. The slow 2-k of the B-wing (back in 1e before it had the 1 Tallons) could be a weakness at times, a strength at others. 1K is even more extreme, and while it's going to be a really handy flip-move at times, at others it won't work so well.

So many games where I really miss the 4k on my Vultures.

55 minutes ago, Brunas said:

48 points of ESC vultures have an about 50% chance to trade favorably with 64 points of torp wedge, so frankly I think I disagree with the entire assessment that Wedge bulllies vultures, other than having them one shot feelsbadman.

This is pretty much what I've found, the main exception was against a Rebel Torp list (Wedge, Luke, Dutch) which could reliably delete 2-3 Vultures a turn, which is 1 more than I could handle. Rebels trying to stay alive (the fools) were much easier to overwhelm.

So far that's the only list that has completely out-jousted me with the Vultures (5xTFD with Maul), though I think a TIE swarm could also do it.

1 minute ago, __underscore__ said:

This is pretty much what I've found, the main exception was against a Rebel Torp list (Wedge, Luke, Dutch) which could reliably delete 2-3 Vultures a turn, which is 1 more than I could handle. Rebels trying to stay alive (the fools) were much easier to overwhelm.

So far that's the only list that has completely out-jousted me with the Vultures, though I think a TIE swarm could also do it.

^^ this

The game I lost in list-building was against Wedge / Dutch / Lando, with two Proton torps. I managed to kill Wedge, and that was as good as I could do. Otherwise I got completely annihilated. I traded 200 points for Wedge with torps, and figured that was about the best case scenario.

4 minutes ago, __underscore__ said:

This is pretty much what I've found, the main exception was against a Rebel Torp list (Wedge, Luke, Dutch) which could reliably delete 2-3 Vultures a turn, which is 1 more than I could handle. Rebels trying to stay alive (the fools) were much easier to overwhelm.

So far that's the only list that has completely out-jousted me with the Vultures (5xTFD with Maul), though I think a TIE swarm could also do it.

Outmaneuver Wedge tho, lol

9 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

I feel like an under-discussed weakness of Vultures is the slow turn-around moves. It's going to be pretty hard to clear a scrum and get guns-on-target with only 1K and 2_Tallon. The slow 2-k of the B-wing (back in 1e before it had the 1 Tallons) could be a weakness at times, a strength at others. 1K is even more extreme, and while it's going to be a really handy flip-move at times, at others it won't work so well.

I'm... not sure that the dial is bad so much as... really, really weird. It's absolutely bizarre spinning that dial and looking at the map. Most of the time I can do what I want to do just fine. I'm just sad that I pick up fewer dials each turn.

2 minutes ago, player3010587 said:

Outmaneuver Wedge tho, lol

If there's an Outmaneuver Wedge on the board, I sure as *** ain't pointing anywhere else.

Completely agree with @__underscore__ on his assessment of Droids vs Rebels.

And people saying the dial is bad seems astonishing. All the *good* players who have used droids against me seemed to have no trouble at all with it. And made excellent use of the linked action followed by blue hard turn to clear the stress.

I have flown 6 vultures and Grevious with Kraken a few times, and each time I get to the midgame, I wish I was flying the Inferno TIE swarm instead. Even seven TIEs with Iden/Howl feels better to me than the clankers.

I like flying swarms, but the drones just keep letting me down, and it’s hard to quantity why.

50 minutes ago, AEIllingworth said:

I tried the eight vultures at adepticon hyperspace, just to see how it went. They have a very good opening salvo, but by the time I was down to about four everything just collapsed. They seem to need a critical mass or a wingman that can close or both.

I wasn’t the only one?? 😄

My 6(?) games between what I played at Adepticon Hyperspace and a local Hyper tourney, I didn’t have too much trouble closing with ~4 Vultures, so long as I did enough damage before I was that low. My two losing matchups were Rebel Beef and a Republic Swarm, but I also beat a Rebel Beef list fairly handily at Adepticon, and managed to beat a Boba+Guri+L337 list at the local tourney—and it was one of the better local players flying it. (Not saying he was flying at his best, but he’s not bad.)

That said, I am going for Maul+5 this weekend for my first Hyperspace Trial. Not sure how much of it is because it feels stronger or just because it’s a bit different and I need a slight change of pace.

I guess the “52 points of x-wing vs 52 points of vulture” fight is more interesting than I thought?

it feels to me like Wedge cleans them up easily, because I assume Wedge is using his chassis and initiative to create advantageous engagements.

If dials don’t matter and we’re just going to stay at range 2 and exchange gate of storms shots, then I guess he loses. Maybe he should learn to play the game.

How many points would you pay for this?

What about this? (Reminder: C-3P0 is 6 points.)

24 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

I'm... not sure that the dial is bad so much as... really, really weird. It's absolutely bizarre spinning that dial and looking at the map. Most of the time I can do what I want to do just fine. I'm just sad that I pick up fewer dials each turn.

Totally fair. A 1-K isn't bad, it's really different from what most folks are used to. It'll be better for some things, worse for others.

3 minutes ago, svelok said:

How many points would you pay for this?

I guess the smaller one will be very similar to the Escape Craft in pricing. The larger Transport then could be upper 30s?

21 minutes ago, svelok said:

How many points would you pay for this?

What about this? (Reminder: C-3P0 is 6 points.)

I agree with @Pink_Viking. Not a lot of good comps, but the full pod lines up (if you squint) with the K-Wing and Punisher to be base mid-30s. And the Escape Craft is probably the best pod comp.

38 minutes ago, svelok said:

How many points would you pay for this?

What about this? (Reminder: C-3P0 is 6 points.)

Hope for a gunner slot, because Rose + Finn would be daaaaaaaaaank.

1 hour ago, Dismal Scientist said:

I have flown 6 vultures and Grevious with Kraken a few times, and each time I get to the midgame, I wish I was flying the Inferno TIE swarm instead.

So much this.

I've been trying to pull myself away from the inferno swarm in hyperspace and everytime i fly the CIS swarm, I just wind up wishing I was flying Inferno. If I want to line 6 ships up together and fly as a unit, I might as well do it with the best swarm available.

Also...Inferno makes CIS swarm super sad in a joust.

It's weird getting used to the fact that, unlike a lot of swarm fighters, vultures really don't want to be at range 1. Range 1 is where you set up a nice killbox and then the ships with the best shots get one-shoted before they can engage. In my limited experience, Kraken + Linked Calculations do a lot of work to make up for the weirdness of the dial - after your energy shell charges are spent, it doesn't really matter who carries the calculates so you are freed up to run over obstacles/bump/use your red moves etc in a way that is liberating. I also found Discord Missiles better than expected. They can't be initiative killed and the carriers instantly become low-priority targets after they fire. The effect of the buzz droids is low in terms of damage getting through, but they are pretty easy to land and create a lot of opportunities for your opponent to react to them wrong. I'm sure they are a bit overcosted and matchup dependant but I don't think they are complete trash.

1 hour ago, skotothalamos said:

I guess the “52 points of x-wing vs 52 points of vulture” fight is more interesting than I thought?

it feels to me like Wedge cleans them up easily, because I assume Wedge is using his chassis and initiative to create advantageous engagements.

If dials don’t matter and we’re just going to stay at range 2 and exchange gate of storms shots, then I guess he loses. Maybe he should learn to play the game.

Well, munitions means exchanges at range 2-3 are the same thing, but largely I agree - Wedge (and friends) will kill whichever vulture(s) have the best shots of course, in addition to moving last and blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.

I'm not sure xwings and vultures can do much super big brain arc dodging plays either, if anything the vultures are much more maneuverable. They'll probably end up jousting, which (as far as I know) means the rebels win the joust, which means vultures don't have much reason to exist.

F

6 minutes ago, Brunas said:

Well, munitions means exchanges at range 2-3 are the same thing, but largely I agree - Wedge (and friends) will kill whichever vulture(s) have the best shots of course, in addition to moving last and blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.

I'm not sure xwings and vultures can do much super big brain arc dodging plays either, if anything the vultures are much more maneuverable. They'll probably end up jousting, which (as far as I know) means the rebels win the joust, which means vultures don't have much reason to exist.

F

The entirety of the value I’ve found in Vultures is that I can separate them from my closer and try to get my opponent to screw up and engage them instead of engaging my closer (Maul). No one really wants to aim away from a block of them, even though I’m pretty sure that’s the correct choice.

Might get real interesting once the Nantex is available.

Also, I’m really **** curious what the Hyena Relay is. It’s killing me not to know!

45 minutes ago, Transmogrifier said:

I also found Discord Missiles better than expected. They can't be initiative killed and the carriers instantly become low-priority targets after they fire. The effect of the buzz droids is low in terms of damage getting through, but they are pretty easy to land and create a lot of opportunities for your opponent to react to them wrong. I'm sure they are a bit overcosted and matchup dependant but I don't think they are complete trash.

I believe they are going to be better on Hyenas where they won't take the precious ESC slot (also their cost will probably go down).

45 minutes ago, Brunas said:

They'll probably end up jousting, which (as far as I know) means the rebels win the joust, which means vultures don't have much reason to exist.

So far all almost all my opponents have underestimated that initial round of combat against a chunk of vultures. If you can get a method of getting another mod on at least one droid (i.e. Kraken or Dooku crew) then the network calculations can really start to snowball with either the attack or defense.

The issue for me has always whether I can come out better on round 2, that's when things can go downhill quickly. Round 1 is almost always for the CIS (if it isn't they have next to no hope).

What I found interesting about Vultures was when I went to look at which lists were struggling the least and why that might be, I noticed that they're actually making more cuts than I expected (with vultures in over half a dozen HS Trial cuts and a couple in Top 32 at UK SOS).

I think they're not great but not by any means the worst ship out there, and I wonder how much of a lack of Vulture swarm might be for the same reasons that we saw a lack of TIE swarms? Especially the eight Vulture swarm; I own six of the silly things (which I never fly, because Vultures are the worst, obv) and I feel like I'm in the top percentile of Vulture ownership in my little corner of the world.

I think they're okay but I wish they cost a point or two less. Hard 1 + barrel roll + calculate is a delight. Red 3 bank is a big pain in the butt. Damaged Engine on Vultures is really annoying and happens to me way more than it should, probability-wise.

What is the cut rate, anyway? Isn't it pretty low? (admittedly, that could be slanted due to people buying six and running them without practice)

31 minutes ago, DoubleDown11 said:

I own six of the silly things (which I never fly, because Vultures are the worst, obv) and I feel like I'm in the top percentile of Vulture ownership in my little corner of the world.

Yeah, another reason I'm flying Maul+5 tomorrow is because I've had to keep borrowing my friend's Vulture to fly 8 (I own 2xTDF, 2xSoS, and 1xShiny--He has 1 Shiny but that's his only CIS ship 😂). Figured it'd be better to build a list I don't have to borrow a ship for, until I inevitably get another SoS so I can fly 6 of the Separatist paint job together 😍 at which point I'll go back to trying 8.

Though by then I'll probably have Hyenas...

4 hours ago, svelok said:

How many points would you pay for this?

What about this? (Reminder: C-3P0 is 6 points.)

My answer: I wouldn't

My question is: How does this brick get even 1 green? and How does that little thing get 3 hull and 1 shield and 2 greens? Whaaat?