47 minutes ago, Micanthropyre said:

You make fair points. I think that CIS is in a strange place where of their 3 ships, 1 is a swarm filler thing, 1 is a 10hp 1agility large base ship, and their mid-range fighter has a lot of pilot abilities aimed at synergy with things that melt off the table really fast. There aren't really any standout pieces in the whole faction, and it'll take some new waves of content to fix it.

The Hyena is likely to be a key piece to allow a mix where Vultures become Network Calc escorts to the harder hitting and more reliable munition carrying Hyenas. The issue with that still is that base chassis Vultures are too expensive to commit them to just doing that.

51 minutes ago, AlexW said:

I think Resistance gets a lot better if some things in the Rebel Faction get adjusted. I also think that 5 Awings are still a really strong list but they see a lot less playtime by choice rather than strength of lists.

Any non-ace list someone wants to do with T-70s seems like it'll just be a worse version of Rebel Beef at the moment. Minor nerfs to Rebel Beef probably brings the T-70 up in value.

38 minutes ago, Micanthropyre said:

I'm loving the Republic. They are like, Tier 1.5, very playable in competitive formats and I've seen 3 lists that have performed well at Hyperspace Trial level events (Anakin/Jedi/2V19, Sinker/104th/4xV19, and Jedi/3ARC) which all represent completely different approaches to the game. They also don't feel unfair or particularly combo-focused.

I think Resistance needs more than just RZ2s and T70s to be viable choices and with a lowering of the bar we'll see more of them. I definitely think that if the overall bar gets lowered 5A and XXAA will need to get hit with the nerf bat a little bit, but jumping Lulo 5 points and Tali 2 or 3 probably does enough without touching anything else.

Or a worse version of ARCs, I guess. Taking a Blue Squad Rookiee over a 104th Battallion Pilot just seems like a massive error.

To expand on something I said above, Republic seems like it does the whole "low combo, dependable ship" thing a lot better than Resistance. Cheap T-70s are better off as ARCs, because rear arcs are so good. Ace T-70s are probably better off as Jedi, for the simple efficiency of force charge dice modification. I mean, a generic 7B Jedi Knight is like an Init 3 Poe Dameron without stress. At least Anakin can't equip Proton Torpedoes.

For stuff beyond Xs and As, I'd really love to see the Scavenged YT-1300 get buffed. With the weakest dial, lowest HP, and worst actions of a 3-dice turret ship, it just seems like the one FFG should use to push the envelope on price. As is, it's too expensive compared to the Rebel YT-1300 for all it's indisputable disadvantages. Resistance Sympathizer is 1 point cheaper than an Outer Rim Smuggler, for 2 fewer HP, increased difficulty on the 3 and 4 straight moves, and a red rotate action. That's wicked gross, even if the RS does gain an Init bump over an ORS.

Am I the only one who doesn’t feel like Vultures die too fast? Sure, focused fire from r1-2 will take one down a turn, but I’ve literally not seen a Vulture get one-shot. I’m sure it can happen, I’ve seen beefier ships die to one attack, but they aren’t as flimsy as people make them out to be in my experience. If you get your positioning right for the first engagement with 8 ESC Vultures, even at i1, you stand a chance against most matchups.

I absolutely love flying 8 ESC TFDs because it punishes poor flying—which helps me learn how to fly better—and does fine when flown well.

6 minutes ago, SpiderMana said:

Am I the only one who doesn’t feel like Vultures die too fast? Sure, focused fire from r1-2 will take one down a turn, but I’ve literally not seen a Vulture get one-shot. I’m sure it can happen, I’ve seen beefier ships die to one attack, but they aren’t as flimsy as people make them out to be in my experience. If you get your positioning right for the first engagement with 8 ESC Vultures, even at i1, you stand a chance against most matchups.

I absolutely love flying 8 ESC TFDs because it punishes poor flying—which helps me learn how to fly better—and does fine when flown well.

I think they're tankier than they seem (they've got a decent chance to live through even two focused 3-red attacks). But at the same time, it's hard to argue with the results: CIS aren't doing particularly well, so presumably they aren't living long enough to matter.

Does anyone know if there is a FIRST EDITION dice probability calculator which still works kicking around out there? It'd be nice to use the old Ten Nunb effect to get a sense of how good or bad the new Autoblaster is under ideal conditions.

59 minutes ago, SpiderMana said:

Am I the only one who doesn’t feel like Vultures die too fast? Sure, focused fire from r1-2 will take one down a turn, but I’ve literally not seen a Vulture get one-shot.

I had a really hard time taking Vultures off the board when I played AAAAA against them. At the end of the game I'd only removed one Vulture, got half on two others, and got half on Wat. (I had lost Lu'lo, half on Tali, half on a Green, for a loss, 79-78.) Basically, if they didn't roll at least the average number of blanks, they were very tough to kill with 2-guns, even focus-fired. Networked Calc is really strong.

3 hours ago, Jeff Wilder said:

Networked Calc is really strong.

With Kraken as well, it's seemed really good whenever I've seen it.

Droids can just be really complicated. The moment it's not just 'firing ESC', literally everyone is scratching their heads, reading cards..... And then the dial has to be dealt with...

The Hyena should help a lot. A noisy little group of droids doing not fortressing, lobbing discord, while the EPB is set.... Might enable some more intricate uses, as part of a differently balanced squad.

I think the new releases all round are going to change things a lot for the newer factions. Then potential price changes may look quite different.

Apart from the obvious. Nerf those now.

8 hours ago, RStan said:

The chassis is THAT bad and it's only saving grace is networked calculations and access to hard turn, BR to linked calc.

Just give em all a 0 pt title with the cloak action. Itll be fine.

Vultures are bad, but isn't that the point? They are supposed to be the worst ship avaliable, but they have networked calc to give them a real reason to be brought.

25 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

lobbing discord, while the EPB is set

Ooo, Buzz Droid Swarms aren't hurt by the EPB, are they? That could be a seriously powerful control combo. Herd people towards BDS to avoid getting hit by the EPB, wait for the ion to create an optimal aiming situation for landing the BDS in the first place, hit them with BDS and then ionize them.... Some nifty options there.

Just now, SnooSnarry said:

Vultures are bad, but isn't that the point? They are supposed to be the worst ship avaliable, but they have networked calc to give them a real reason to be brought.

Bad/good can almost entirely be determined by points. Obviously a Vulture can't 1v1 most ships because it costs almost 2/3rd the price of the next cheapest ship. But 50 pts of Vultures vs 50 pts of T-65 gets interesting.

6 hours ago, SpiderMana said:

But 50 pts of Vultures vs 50 pts of T-65 gets interesting.

two Separatist Drones with Energy Shells vs Wedge is not all that interesting.

3 hours ago, skotothalamos said:

two Separatist Drones with Energy Shells vs Wedge is not all that interesting.

Did I give you those two extra points? 😜 Maybe not the best example, fine, but out of 200 pts they can do their job fine in my experience.

7 hours ago, skotothalamos said:

two Separatist Drones with Energy Shells vs Wedge is not all that interesting.

Is wedge way better or the drones?

...asking for a friend

7 hours ago, skotothalamos said:

two Separatist Drones with Energy Shells vs Wedge is not all that interesting.

5 minutes ago, Brunas said:

Is wedge way better or the drones?

...asking for a friend

I think the Vultures are terrible, but I don't think this is a very good question and shame on you @Brunas for egging him on.

The value of each ship in a swarm starts higher, and as ships die off their relative value drops. At the start of the game, I'd much rather have 5 Trade Fed droids with ESC than 3 Blue Squadron Escorts, even if I had to give up the 3 points anyway.

14 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

Just give em all a 0 pt title with the cloak action. Itll be fine.

If decloaking didn't give the movement I'd be okay with this actually.

29 minutes ago, Micanthropyre said:

I think the Vultures are terrible, but I don't think this is a very good question and shame on you @Brunas for egging him on.

The value of each ship in a swarm starts higher, and as ships die off their relative value drops. At the start of the game, I'd much rather have 5 Trade Fed droids with ESC than 3 Blue Squadron Escorts, even if I had to give up the 3 points anyway.

...what? Vultures are weird and complicated, that's why I'm asking. I'm not sure what he meant.

2 minutes ago, Brunas said:

...what? Vultures are weird and complicated, that's why I'm asking. I'm not sure what he meant.

Because literally all four games I’ve played with CIS were against Wedge, can confirm that no number of Vultures wants to see that across the table.

Also, Wedge with Torps makes drones cry. It’s super gross.

wedge bullies vultures

I played against vultures last night, very hefty maul and 3 vultures with hull upgrades and energy shells against my rebel beef. even with the extra hull wedge still murders droids. also rebel beef is dumb

19 minutes ago, PaulRuddSays said:

Because literally all four games I’ve played with CIS were against Wedge, can confirm that no number of Vultures wants to see that across the table.

Also, Wedge with Torps makes drones cry. It’s super gross.

17 minutes ago, battlestarbill said:

wedge bullies vultures

Sure, but A bullies B doesn't meant that A is better than B. Thane bullies Han but well, I'll take Han.

Even using the direct matchup for whatever reason, Han has about a 50% chance to kill a drone with a torpedo: http://xwing.gateofstorms.net/2/multi/?d=gQAAAAAAAAAA&a1=QwAAAAAAAAAA (slightly under 50%, add some extra odds for direct hit or other debilitating crit, whatever).

In return, the ESC vultures look like this:

1 vultures hits him for 1.5

2 vultures hit him for 3.1

3 vultures hit him for 4.6

http://xwing.gateofstorms.net/2/multi_preset/?d=AgAAAAAAAAAA&a1=AgMAAA&a2=AgMAAA&a3=AgMAAA

That's either 48 points of ESC vulture vs 64 points of wedge, or 72 points of ESC vulture vs 64 points of wedge.

48 points of ESC vultures have an about 50% chance to trade favorably with 64 points of torp wedge, so frankly I think I disagree with the entire assessment that Wedge bulllies vultures, other than having them one shot feelsbadman.

EDIT: I'm not even trying to say vultures are good against wedge. I'm trying to figure out what everyone else thinks of them lmao, where you guys apparently think this is some crazy jebait

Wedge is OK because he's i6, has a kinda-ok ability, throws 3 dice and opportunistically arc dodges.

Vultures are dog **** since they have a restrictive dial and are incredibly vulnerable to getting int killed if they even do get to engage in the first place.

Don't even get me started on non-esc vultures.

13 minutes ago, Brunas said:

EDIT: I'm not even trying to say vultures are good against wedge. I'm trying to figure out what everyone else thinks of them lmao, where you guys apparently think this is some crazy jebait

roses are red

poe wears orange

vultures are garbage

wtf rhymes with orange

But really its mostly that a swarm is more than the sum of the point costs of the ships in it..... until a bunch of those ships die then they usually are worse than their points. The more calc tokens networked the better the ships are. I don't know why we'd compare 2 vultures to Wedge and think anything useful would come out of it.

I tried the eight vultures at adepticon hyperspace, just to see how it went. They have a very good opening salvo, but by the time I was down to about four everything just collapsed. They seem to need a critical mass or a wingman that can close or both.

I feel like an under-discussed weakness of Vultures is the slow turn-around moves. It's going to be pretty hard to clear a scrum and get guns-on-target with only 1K and 2_Tallon. The slow 2-k of the B-wing (back in 1e before it had the 1 Tallons) could be a weakness at times, a strength at others. 1K is even more extreme, and while it's going to be a really handy flip-move at times, at others it won't work so well.

52 minutes ago, Brunas said:

Sure, but A bullies B doesn't meant that A is better than B. Thane bullies Han but well, I'll take Han.

Even using the direct matchup for whatever reason, Han has about a 50% chance to kill a drone with a torpedo: http://xwing.gateofstorms.net/2/multi/?d=gQAAAAAAAAAA&a1=QwAAAAAAAAAA (slightly under 50%, add some extra odds for direct hit or other debilitating crit, whatever).

In return, the ESC vultures look like this:

1 vultures hits him for 1.5

2 vultures hit him for 3.1

3 vultures hit him for 4.6

http://xwing.gateofstorms.net/2/multi_preset/?d=AgAAAAAAAAAA&a1=AgMAAA&a2=AgMAAA&a3=AgMAAA

That's either 48 points of ESC vulture vs 64 points of wedge, or 72 points of ESC vulture vs 64 points of wedge.

48 points of ESC vultures have an about 50% chance to trade favorably with 64 points of torp wedge, so frankly I think I disagree with the entire assessment that Wedge bulllies vultures, other than having them one shot feelsbadman.

EDIT: I'm not even trying to say vultures are good against wedge. I'm trying to figure out what everyone else thinks of them lmao, where you guys apparently think this is some crazy jebait

To clarify, I don’t think Vultures are total garbage (overall). I’ve been running Wat (Kraken) with 3x I3 ESC drones and Hate Maul. I’m 3/3 against BBXU / BBXY, so it’s not losing at list-building, but it’d be a lot more uphill without Maul to bully stuff.

My experience is that they’re fine at R3 opening, but in the mid game they’re extremely liable to take nasty crits or evaporate from R1 fire... I had one game where only one Vulture survived more than one shot. That’s a thing that WILL happen, so you have to be OK with it.

on the plus side: blue 2 turn with linked roll to calculate is super good. Lots of shots are also more effective at taking down low-variance ships like B-Wings (or Han, if he screws up enough to let you get the shots).

Edit: it also needs to be said that my opponents and I made several mistakes, because flying against/with these is weird. Also, we’re bad at X-Wing.

Also, obviously, anecdotal. I could totally have lost at list-building and my opponents failed to capitalize.