15 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

But for TGI's 56, we have 51 and 53 for Plo and Obi. WTF?

IMO, TGI has also a much better ability, one more shield and a better dial, Plo had an amazing ship ability, so the difference to Plo is ok or just very few points too large.

I'd say that both would have to come down a bit compared to Obi, as the 3rd force is very valuable.

I just want to play Supernatural GI without having him cost more than a 3rd of my list 😢

I don't think he's too badly costed otherwise but +10pt base over Seventh Sister, seems a little overboard. Her ability is arguably not worse than his.

Double post.

21 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

The reason I'm bothered is that much of the negative sides of xwing discussions are due to misunderstandings. Genuinely different views are interesting, but it is not interesting to argue semantics - as you point out.

But for that that we should not change the meanings of words. Somewhen down the line we will see an unnecessary argument about the meaning of NPE because one of the largest podcasts used it with a new meaning. We already see the misunderstand of NPE for 'OP', which is also rather frustrating

Compare it to the Mynock opening discussion this week.

10 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

Plo and Obiwan can't easily get 3 dice attacks just from their pilot ability. That and the white evade are almost certainly worth 5 points over Plo.

1 minute ago, GreenDragoon said:

IMO, TGI has a much better ability, one more shield and a better dial, Plo had an amazing ship ability, so the difference to Plo is ok or just very few points too large.

I'd say that both would have to come down a bit compared to Obi, as the 3rd force is very valuable.

Eh, maybe. I could easily be underestimating the value of TGI's ability. But on the other hand, we know that spending an action on a focus token is generally about the same value as spending an action for an extra attack die. It isn't a clean comparison with these pilot abilities, but their value might not be too far off.

//

As to the baseline ship itself, I do think FTC + Aethersprite dial works out a lot better than Linked Focus + v1 Dial in practice. The ability to Boost/Barrel Roll into any action (Force + Lock is great!) without stress is pretty potent, and an Aethersprite dial on White moves is way, way better than v1 on Blues.

19 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

IMO, TGI has also a much better ability, one more shield and a better dial, Plo had an amazing ship ability, so the difference to Plo is ok or just very few points too large.

I'd say that both would have to come down a bit compared to Obi, as the 3rd force is very valuable.

OTOH, how often do you see naked Obi/Plo vs 7B? At a glance, around 70%?

And if so, does that suggest Obi-wan is overpriced and 7B is underpriced? There's also a pretty dramatic usage jump from Plo to Obi, 2 points for a force is pretty good.

10 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

Her (Sev) ability is arguably not worse than his (TGI).

Sev's does cost 2 force to TGI's 1, and he can also use his defensively. But I see where you're coming from. Going after results directly is going to feel more impactful than adjusting dice, which could always roll blanks.

14 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

I just want to play Supernatural GI without having him cost more than a 3rd of my list 😢

Supernatural v1 are so much fun. The fact that they can leverage that boost/barrel roll into also a Focus is one of the big advantages of a v1 over an Aethersprite, and an absolute blast to play with. TGI's price with SNR is pretty painful, but I honestly can't really see him going down to 67-ish points...

10 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Eh, maybe. I could easily be underestimating the value of TGI's ability. But on the other hand, we know that spending an action on a focus token is generally about the same value as spending an action for an extra attack die. It isn't a clean comparison with these pilot abilities, but their value might not be too far off.

//

As to the baseline ship itself, I do think FTC + Aethersprite dial works out a lot better than Linked Focus + v1 Dial in practice. The ability to Boost/Barrel Roll into any action (Force + Lock is great!) without stress is pretty potent, and an Aethersprite dial on White moves is way, way better than v1 on Blues.

Maybe. Nobody ever flies TGI, though, so I'm not sure anybody really knows how good (or not) he is.

5 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

Maybe. Nobody ever flies TGI, though, so I'm not sure anybody really knows how good (or not) he is.

I flew him for a bit before and after Wave 2. Even with Hate for him to use his ability far more liberally, he still is overcosted. I mean, it all looks good on paper when you think "i can just arc dodge", but then you have to calculate the cost of the bid and its utilization into the list. I've tried going bidless on him, but his gun or missiles--3 dice max with no special tricks--are not nearly scary enough to force your opponent's moves. For the same cost as a Hate GI, you can get Whisper, who can mod her defense to an insane degree, and whose shot is not only downright annoying, but synergizes with other even scarier shots in your list, such as Rexlar or Redline. Hyperspace will fix his opportunity cost problem (aka, why not Whisper), but I don't know if it will be enough.

3 minutes ago, player3010587 said:

I flew him for a bit before and after Wave 2. Even with Hate for him to use his ability far more liberally, he still is overcosted. I mean, it all looks good on paper when you think "i can just arc dodge", but then you have to calculate the cost of the bid and its utilization into the list. I've tried going bidless on him, but his gun or missiles--3 dice max with no special tricks--are not nearly scary enough to force your opponent's moves. For the same cost as a Hate GI, you can get Whisper, who can mod her defense to an insane degree, and whose shot is not only downright annoying, but synergizes with other even scarier shots in your list, such as Rexlar or Redline. Hyperspace will fix his opportunity cost problem (aka, why not Whisper), but I don't know if it will be enough.

Yeah, in Extended, Whisper always steals his spot. As he hits Hyperspace maybe he sees play? Or at least he has a chance with a small discount. I guess I'm saying that I think he's not in the "absolutely terrible" category. His low frequency is mostly due to competition in his points range. He's probably a little overpriced, but not by so much that I'd be surprised if he could win a Hyperspace Trial with a good player in a good squad.

53 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Comparing almost anyone to L'ulo--who is pretty much universally acknowledged to be radically underpriced--is never going to hand in a favorable comparison.

The obvious and easy comparisons for TGI are Obi-Wan and Plo Koon.

Sure, Aethersprites can get their two configurations, which are easy and potent, but they do exist as baseline ships, and TGI can equip missiles (and at least Proton Rockets are easy). But for TGI's 56, we have 51 and 53 for Plo and Obi. WTF?

Plo is the perfect ship to compare, since they essentially have the same statline (force included), and linked actions vs Fine-Tuned controls are close enough to comparable (although FTC seem to have shown themselves superior). Sure, TGI is a situational extra attack die ability, and those tend to be costly, but Plo is situationally an extra attack ability. Obi-wan has an extra force, and can use that force for extra actions on any ship in a Range 2 bubble. Only focus actions, but it's still good.

And yet, TGI is 5 points more than Plo, 3 points more than Obi. Honestly, if TGI is 51, I think he's kinda fair (that's a 10% cost reduction, btw). With Hate/FCS at a total of 56, rather than unupgraded, that doesn't seem too out-of-line. 2 points more than Predator Soontir, for easier passive mods and extra health, but only Init 5 and a harder-to-achieve 3rd attack die. I think he'd be regular-list playable at that price, even if he probably wouldn't go in a revised Squad-of-Legends.

"Yeah, but what about dial comparison (as Aces neeeeeeeds this to be good) with access to cheap R2 for blue 1-2 hards?" said the sad Jax Interceptor pilot.

...now where's my tea?

Grand Inquisitor's defense : offense ratio is tilted too heavily in favor of defense.

Jedi can take a lock to double mod dice with force, but Inqy is either only rolling 2 dice, or only has one force to modify dice, and loses the ability to mod on defense. On defense, he has the ability to stack 3 agility with 2 force and an evade token, which makes him incredibly durable but leaves him trying to just tickle things to death.

He also has a lot of competition. Whisper in Extended, Soontir in Hyperspace. Soontir eats up a lot of room that Grand Inquisitor might be able to fill if he's rotated out.

6 minutes ago, svelok said:

Grand Inquisitor's defense : offense ratio is tilted too heavily in favor of defense.

Jedi can take a lock to double mod dice with force, but Inqy is either only rolling 2 dice, or only has one force to modify dice, and loses the ability to mod on defense. On defense, he has the ability to stack 3 agility with 2 force and an evade token, which makes him incredibly durable but leaves him trying to just tickle things to death.

He also has a lot of competition. Whisper in Extended, Soontir in Hyperspace. Soontir eats up a lot of room that Grand Inquisitor might be able to fill if he's rotated out.

What if you had both Soontir and GI?

I've tried out TGI and his issue is that he struggles to generate offense in line with his cost. His abilities are great but they all use the same force pool so he runs out of steam fast. If you could make him the center of attention, he could be worthwhile since he's really obnoxious to kill, but he doesn't really represent enough of an offensive threat to pull that off currently.

I do really like 7th Sister with no upgrades as a pocket ace though.

1 minute ago, Biophysical said:

What if you had both Soontir and GI?

You can have RAC too. Maybe?

5 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

What if you had both Soontir and GI?

**** it, go all Eide and throw in a Vader while we're at it! The low bid shouldn't be too bad so long as Soontir rotates more than an AWP'r on Mirage, since the force uses have shields to use against I6

-Edit- Wow, you can actually fit an 11pt bid comfortably with the 3! Is Rexler really that expensive? Lol

1 minute ago, player3010587 said:

**** it, go all Eide and throw in a Vader while we're at it! The low bid shouldn't be too bad so long as Soontir rotates more than an AWP'r on Mirage, since the force uses have shields to use against I6

I mean, yeah. You can get standard builds, naked Inq, and 15 points leftover, assu long no net adjustment. That's a bit of gear and still a reasonably good bid.

Someone has to go in the middle anyway, and GI is probably the best bet. Put him in the most vulnerable position of the three and tank attacks if they go for him. Enjoy your positional advantages if they try to hit one of your flanks instead.

24 minutes ago, Transmogrifier said:

I've tried out TGI and his issue is that he struggles to generate offense in line with his cost. His abilities are great but they all use the same force pool so he runs out of steam fast. If you could make him the center of attention, he could be worthwhile since he's really obnoxious to kill, but he doesn't really represent enough of an offensive threat to pull that off currently.

I do really like 7th Sister with no upgrades as a pocket ace though.

That’s the crux of it. They just don’t bring enough offense to the table. And at the end of the day, a ship needs to do damage commensurate with its points to be viable. And the 2 die primary just doesn’t get there. You can cheat a 2 dice primary to 50 points if you have some tricks to push damage, my standard Seventh Sister build is FCS Hate, but any more than that and you are stacking too many points in a low damage gun.

2 dice attacks are viable in game, but only cheaply and en masse, or as part of a blocker/ harasser. Gold Squadron Troopers, Academy Pilots, Binyare Pirates all have a place because they are cheap and you can fit lots of them, or as a blocker for big guns. The v1 prices at a premium ace ship, but one that simply can not deal premium ace damage. Sister can get away with it because her ability allows her to sneak enough damage at the ~50 price point to be worth it when well flown. But the jump from 1/4 of a list to 1/3 of a list for a decent GGI build? Nothing can salvage that.

6 minutes ago, millertime059 said:

That’s the crux of it. They just don’t bring enough offense to the table. And at the end of the day, a ship needs to do damage commensurate with its points to be viable. And the 2 die primary just doesn’t get there. You can cheat a 2 dice primary to 50 points if you have some tricks to push damage, my standard Seventh Sister build is FCS Hate, but any more than that and you are stacking too many points in a low damage gun.

2 dice attacks are viable in game, but only cheaply and en masse, or as part of a blocker/ harasser. Gold Squadron Troopers, Academy Pilots, Binyare Pirates all have a place because they are cheap and you can fit lots of them, or as a blocker for big guns. The v1 prices at a premium ace ship, but one that simply can not deal premium ace damage. Sister can get away with it because her ability allows her to sneak enough damage at the ~50 price point to be worth it when well flown. But the jump from 1/4 of a list to 1/3 of a list for a decent GGI build? Nothing can salvage that.

For these reasons, the force powers that require spending a force hamstring TGI a lot as he really wants to use that ability for an extra die before sinking points for missiles. I'm sure we'll figure out TGI, but he is quite the puzzle. *laughs in Luke Skywalker*

But 7th sister is the ****. Annoying enough to distract from your aces, but defensive enough to be a red dice sink.

If they printed quiz with 3 force he would have been much more playable. But right now I think defenders outclass supernatural quiz. I think quiz is harder to kill, but he can't put out the damage a defender can for only slightly more points invested into the defender, who nets you basically the same thing quiz is doing but you can have a 4 dice range 1 shot. And having Han be the first thing to worry about in the meta, quiz just can't get the damage into him at all.

If any of you miss my voice specifically, the latest millennium condor quiz is up

30 minutes ago, SnooSnarry said:

If they printed quiz with 3 force he would have been much more playable. But right now I think defenders outclass supernatural quiz. I think quiz is harder to kill, but he can't put out the damage a defender can for only slightly more points invested into the defender, who nets you basically the same thing quiz is doing but you can have a 4 dice range 1 shot. And having Han be the first thing to worry about in the meta, quiz just can't get the damage into him at all.

For the love of God, Empire does not need a 3 force ship that denies range 1 bonuses and decides to YOLO with Prockets as a somehow viable strat. As a Rexler main in extended, I agree about defenders being the hardest thing to kill, it's in the name after all, lol.

TGI inquisitor is very close to being the right cost. Personally, I think the opportunity cost of taking something better [or close to his power level] for the same [or less] cost hurts him most.

You know what's the funnest thing I've put on the table in a long time?

Mauler Mithel with Afterburners.

Alt art when?

13 minutes ago, player3010587 said:

For the love of God, Empire does not need a 3 force ship that denies range 1 bonuses and decides to YOLO with Prockets as a somehow viable strat. As a Rexler main in extended, I agree about defenders being the hardest thing to kill, it's in the name after all, lol.

TGI inquisitor is very close to being the right cost. Personally, I think the opportunity cost of taking something better [or close to his power level] for the same [or less] cost hurts him most.

Problem with quiz right now is you have to take supernatural to get value out of him, but that means you'll very rarely use his pilot ability. You're just trying to find the range 1 spot to shoot a 3 dice gun without spending a force because you have none. He needs to cost considerably cheaper for me to start considering him over a defender.

22 minutes ago, impspy said:

You know what's the funnest thing I've put on the table in a long time?

Mauler Mithel with Afterburners.

Alt art when?

As a Mauler fan (best character in the movies) I'm totally in. Helped win me dice in the past. I thought about afterburners, to be honest. I find it hard to put more points on a TIE Fighter.