Can we stop an appreciate the genius of that Jake for a second.

• it's cheaper than a juke phantom so if if you trade Jake for a phantom, you're ahead on points.
• it's a smol Wedge so people will hunt it so they don't get the bad feeling
• it's lone wolf + 3 agi + a focus so it takes forever to kill

I'll be the first to say that Han takes, at best, basic competency to fly. But that Jake is a really clever piece to go with it.

1 hour ago, jagsba said:

Can we stop an appreciate the genius of that Jake for a second.

• it's cheaper than a juke phantom so if if you trade Jake for a phantom, you're ahead on points.
• it's a smol Wedge so people will hunt it so they don't get the bad feeling
• it's lone wolf + 3 agi + a focus so it takes forever to kill

I'll be the first to say that Han takes, at best, basic competency to fly. But that Jake is a really clever piece to go with it.

6 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

O U T M A N E U V E R E D
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1 hour ago, jagsba said:

Can we stop an appreciate the genius of that Jake for a second.

• it's cheaper than a juke phantom so if if you trade Jake for a phantom, you're ahead on points.
• it's a smol Wedge so people will hunt it so they don't get the bad feeling
• it's lone wolf + 3 agi + a focus so it takes forever to kill

I'll be the first to say that Han takes, at best, basic competency to fly. But that Jake is a really clever piece to go with it.

I accept your praise. Someone obviously read my obsessive A-wing thread before building his Super Han list...

On 1/28/2019 at 5:01 PM, Phelan Boots said:

The Lone Snake: Jake, Lone Wolf, Outmanuever - 47 points

This Jake does his thing by himself, acquiring double mods, repositions, and reduces Agility. Fit him with Prockets or a Concussion Missile for maximum (and pricey) hurting. Concussion missiles work with Outmaneuver, Prockets do not.

5 hours ago, Brunas said:

I think R4-P is just poorly priced. It looks really stupid next to R4 astromech.

I kinda think the existence of R4 is kind of a mistake, given R4-P. A charge-based design seems so much more balanced and interesting. It would have been cool to see R4-P at 2 points as the default droid open to all ship sizes and all factions. It'd go a long way towards making a Punishing One playable (but only for two rounds, and only on basic moves!), and could find a niche home on something like a Kimogila. It's also just cooler. A player has to think about when it's worth it to use one of the two charges.

Meanwhile, the persistent every-move-is-blue of the R4 can be game-warping. For most ships, it won't really matter. They'll only need a blue hard turn like twice a game. But some ships like Poe, Saesee Tiin, and maybe some oddball giving Leevan Tenza a shot, it seriously upends the normal balance of the ship. The always-on sort of effect, and what can be a fairly powerful effect like this, seems like the kind of thing which ought to be faction locked, and maybe limited.

52 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

I kinda think the existence of R4 is kind of a mistake, given R4-P. A charge-based design seems so much more balanced and interesting. It would have been cool to see R4-P at 2 points as the default droid open to all ship sizes and all factions. It'd go a long way towards making a Punishing One playable (but only for two rounds, and only on basic moves!), and could find a niche home on something like a Kimogila. It's also just cooler. A player has to think about when it's worth it to use one of the two charges.

Meanwhile, the persistent every-move-is-blue of the R4 can be game-warping. For most ships, it won't really matter. They'll only need a blue hard turn like twice a game. But some ships like Poe, Saesee Tiin, and maybe some oddball giving Leevan Tenza a shot, it seriously upends the normal balance of the ship. The always-on sort of effect, and what can be a fairly powerful effect like this, seems like the kind of thing which ought to be faction locked, and maybe limited.

And here’s the thing, I think R4-P is fine, and playable. Great for Jedi really. Mace in particular loves it, better than a base R4 for him. In fact the only Jedi I strongly favor R4 for is Saeese, and potentially a Jedi flying with Saeese.

But you are going to see the generic R4 stapled to Republic Y’s. And in fact I fear for the viability of R2 pilot simply because we expect the Astromech slot to be gone from him. The republic Y is so limited here.

I agree but without R4 Poe would be even worse than what he already is.

But is R4 really something you want to spend 2 points on if you aren't Poe?

1 hour ago, theBitterFig said:

I kinda think the existence of R4 is kind of a mistake, given R4-P. A charge-based design seems so much more balanced and interesting. It would have been cool to see R4-P at 2 points as the default droid open to all ship sizes and all factions. It'd go a long way towards making a Punishing One playable (but only for two rounds, and only on basic moves!), and could find a niche home on something like a Kimogila. It's also just cooler. A player has to think about when it's worth it to use one of the two charges.

Meanwhile, the persistent every-move-is-blue of the R4 can be game-warping. For most ships, it won't really matter. They'll only need a blue hard turn like twice a game. But some ships like Poe, Saesee Tiin, and maybe some oddball giving Leevan Tenza a shot, it seriously upends the normal balance of the ship. The always-on sort of effect, and what can be a fairly powerful effect like this, seems like the kind of thing which ought to be faction locked, and maybe limited.

I really hate what R4 even existing does to interesting ship design

24 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

But is R4 really something you want to spend 2 points on if you aren't Poe?

Worth it on E-Wings, IMO. They get the most out of that dial change by far in the Rebel faction. Aethersprites and now Republic Y's are the only ships that might get as many/more blue moves out of it, off the top of my head.

R4-P is pretty great, if only because I've always wanted to put R4 on my ARCs! Part of me feels like the 2-charge restriction should make him almost cheaper than R4? But obviously he's more flexible in allowing faster maneuvers to be changed. So I think they might end up at the same points cost at some point?

2 minutes ago, SpiderMana said:

Worth it on E-Wings, IMO. They get the most out of that dial change by far in the Rebel faction. Aethersprites and now Republic Y's are the only ships that might get as many/more blue moves out of it, off the top of my head.

R4-P is pretty great, if only because I've always wanted to put R4 on my ARCs! Part of me feels like the 2-charge restriction should make him almost cheaper than R4? But obviously he's more flexible in allowing faster maneuvers to be changed. So I think they might end up at the same points cost at some point?

E-wing might want it but Corran, who is basically the only playable E-wing, prefers R2 in that slot.

Aetherspite might gain some blues but does it really need? It's not like you are getting stressed so often, I think you'd either go for R2 or use those 2 points for something else in the list

16 minutes ago, SpiderMana said:

Worth it on E-Wings, IMO. They get the most out of that dial change by far in the Rebel faction. Aethersprites and now Republic Y's are the only ships that might get as many/more blue moves out of it, off the top of my head.

R4-P is pretty great, if only because I've always wanted to put R4 on my ARCs! Part of me feels like the 2-charge restriction should make him almost cheaper than R4? But obviously he's more flexible in allowing faster maneuvers to be changed. So I think they might end up at the same points cost at some point?

R4-P is tempting for the BLT-B Y-Wing too, for the same reason as the ARC - the white 3-hard might be more valuable than all the extra blues, just to fix your engagement profile.

The N1 with an R4 has an insane amount of blue options. Dunno if the ship has any way to to really leverage stress-clearing, though.

59 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

E-wing might want it but Corran prefers R2 in that slot

Oh, sure, but I was flying Gavin/Rogue for Adepticon. So.

1 hour ago, Sunitsa said:

E-wing might want it but Corran, who is basically the only playable E-wing, prefers R2 in that slot.

Aetherspite might gain some blues but does it really need? It's not like you are getting stressed so often, I think you'd either go for R2 or use those 2 points for something else in the list

I mean I disagree with pretty much 100% of this.

Gavin is better than Corran IMO.

And on Aethersprites the 2 sloop is an amazing option that I put to good use, especially on Mace, Ahsoka, and Anakin. Now I tend to run R4-P on them instead, or R4-P17 on Mace and Anakin, but R4 is not a bad option.

I'm honestly still in shock legit conversations happen here (not a bad thing, just shocked).


Continue.

22 minutes ago, millertime059 said:

Now I tend to run R4-P on them instead

Huh, that's interesting. Why?

The only benefit over the R4 is the one moment where you really want that blue 3bank or 5straight, all other maneuvers are covered by the R4. But you can just have it twice per game with R4-P. R4 is not just cheaper, he also is unlimited.

2 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

I'm honestly still in shock legit conversations happen here (not a bad thing, just shocked).


Continue.

You aren't my real mom

2 hours ago, Sunitsa said:

I agree but without R4 Poe would be even worse than what he already is.

But is R4 really something you want to spend 2 points on if you aren't Poe?

R4 being generally not-that-worth-it is one of the reasons it isn't really great design. Game-changing on a small number of ships, but really meh on anyone else. That seems perfect for a faction-locked card, or a Limited one.

As to non-R4 Poe, BB-unit (particularly BB-8) Poe can be super interesting. Maybe a little expensive, but still cool and fun to play. And a charge based R4-P might not be too bad. You'll be able to clear stress off any move in your dial and be harder to block, since you could use a 4-straight or any of the 3-speed moves, but only a few times. It'll limit the Full-Soontir-Poe doing hard turns and movement actions each round, but Full-Soontir-Poe probably isn't that great anyhow. Folks were able to make PTL Corran work in 1e by playing to what Corran can do, rather than trying to replicate Soontir. And Poe has a bit better blues than 1e Corran. R4-P instead of R4 would bring the wicked interesting combination of full-dial-flexibility with only two charges.

Meanwhile, Poe's the kind of pilot who can be fixed with points. He's not a fundamentally weak ship, but to the extent that he needs help or isn't very successful, it's mostly just down to cost. L'ulo, Tallie, and Nien Nunb are all super cheap.

Vader went down substantially at the Great Adjustment, and became a great option for Imperials. I don't necessarily think that Poe needs a price cut. Just that he wouldn't need a redesign or errata to be better than he is.

18 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Huh, that's interesting. Why?

The only benefit over the R4 is the one moment where you really want that blue 3bank or 5straight, all other maneuvers are covered by the R4. But you can just have it twice per game with R4-P. R4 is not just cheaper, he also is unlimited.

The thing I keep wondering about unlimited: how often do we actually need it? Personally, I'm not running an R4-P over an R4 on an Aethersprite, just due to cost.

But I can imagine that, say, Obi-Wan only pulls like 2-3 red moves over the course of a game, and doesn't need more than 2 charges. At the same price, R4-P might not lose anything over R4 in a normal game. On the other hand, I could imagine that Mace Windu pulls a higher number of red moves...

1 minute ago, theBitterFig said:

The thing I keep wondering about unlimited: how often do we actually need it? Personally, I'm not running an R4-P over an R4 on an Aethersprite, just due to cost.

But I can imagine that, say, Obi-Wan only pulls like 2-3 red moves over the course of a game, and doesn't need more than 2 charges. At the same price, R4-P might not lose anything over R4 in a normal game. On the other hand, I could imagine that Mace Windu pulls a higher number of red moves...

I mean, sure. We usually play around 7 actual turns after the initial engagement anyway, and only half of those could be post-red-maneuver turns, as that is the only case an aethersprite gets stressed.

I can see R4-P more on other ships that have a 3 turn, and I could see it if it had one more charge. But using it twice for two more points, just gaining 3bank/5straight as additional benefit? I don't see it.

1 hour ago, Brunas said:

You aren't my real mom

But you still call him mommy?

1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

Huh, that's interesting. Why?

The only benefit over the R4 is the one moment where you really want that blue 3bank or 5straight, all other maneuvers are covered by the R4. But you can just have it twice per game with R4-P. R4 is not just cheaper, he also is unlimited.

These are all true things. But my experience (Which is about 25 games with Republic and two tournaments) is that rarely do I need it more than twice a game. The reality is that their existing blues are good enough for most situations. But often after a turn around I find the ability to do a 5 straight to clear stress useful. Much more marginal utility than a hard. Which I can also get.

And Jedi don’t need to be stressed often. Twice per game with greater flexibility (read unpredictability) is better than unlimited but rarely used 1&2 hards.

My last game I used a 3 bank after a sloop to block QuickDraw with Ahsoka.

1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

I mean, sure. We usually play around 7 actual turns after the initial engagement anyway, and only half of those could be post-red-maneuver turns, as that is the only case an aethersprite gets stressed.

I can see R4-P more on other ships that have a 3 turn, and I could see it if it had one more charge. But using it twice for two more points, just gaining 3bank/5straight as additional benefit? I don't see it.

Agreed, at current points. If it was an equal cost for R4 and R4-P, I think it'd be an interesting choice. I don't necessarily find fault with someone else, it seems like the kind of thing which might depend a bit on someone's playstyle, but I personally wouldn't use it.

1 minute ago, theBitterFig said:

it seems like the kind of thing which might depend a bit on someone's playstyle

This is probably the crux of it. I like it, and find it worthwhile at current points even. Particularly for Jedi. But that’s my play style, I don’t shy away from the red moves if I can use it to get an advantage. My opponents can attest, I’m master of putting my ships where I want them, which is often somewhere bad for them. And I’m not the type to really fully disengage often.

Play to your strengths, and mine is maximizing maneuvering.

4 hours ago, Sunitsa said:

Aetherspite might gain some blues but does it really need? It's not like you are getting stressed so often, I think you'd either go for R2 or use those 2 points for something else in the list

Intentionally running over debris, still modding with piles of force, and then green hard is real. We're all so trained to not run over obstacles with expensive ships that people don't consider it. Every time I've pulled it it's either been a complete surprise or the other player said they saw it but figured I wouldn't actually do it so it wasn't worth playing around. That and recovering from the sloops, 2 points seem like a steal on an already expensive 7b. You don't absolutely need it every game but it certainly makes it easier to fly and occasionally comes in clutch.

Would not be surprised at all if R4 went up in points since while it's largely a wash from a utility perspective compared to R4-P it's no contest from an ROI context