39 minutes ago, viedit said:

Tie swarm, and it was either Sam Rothstein or Sean Anderson. Not sure which. I didn't know either of the names and never faced them so not sure. One of them dropped letting the 9th place move up.

It was Sean Anderson. Sam Rothstien dropped before the event started so 9th was moved up to play. Sam had the All 5s Resistance squad.

On page 911, is it a sign?

Edit: **** and just like that now on page 912

15 minutes ago, Makaze said:

The frustrating, not necessarily OP but frustrating, feeling I get from RZ2s is that they remind me effectively of 1.0 turrets.

2 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

That's super interesting:

Weirdly, I agree with everything you both said.

You must both be right.

It is frustrating when you're attempting to predict and outfly them, they just go wherever, boost and shoot you with 85% accuracy whatever. My 3 Zealous Recruits absolutely hated it.

But at the same time, they can be easily misflown and get bogged down with rotates and unmodified shots. They'll roll blanks and an eye on defence at some point and simply blow up. As soon as 2 go down, the list really struggles, in my experience.

The high init in the list is the tipping point. You have to get them out of the way, potentially opening yourself up to a heap of Crack Optics from their mates.

So I wholeheartedly blame L'ulo for everything. Take him OR Crack Optics everywhere, rather than both, and you likely bring the squad down to a place where it'll only do well if expertly flown.

Heroic, for me, does little for the power level.

8 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

No, at least Lulo has to increase by much more than just 5. He is in basically every resistance list, and that's as clear a sign as it can get.

I'm not sure how to phrase this without sounding argumentative, because I'm honestly not trying to be so I'll just write this preface.

Should a particular pilot be judged by the %inclusion of their faction (especially when the faction has very limited options, seeing as the Resistance YT is pretty overpriced and apparently the Starfortress isn't good either) or should the pilot be judged as a part of the meta as a whole? I know you've got a lot of data, whats the up-to-date conversion rate on Resistance, and how often do they win tournaments?

I don't have any upcoming tournaments but I'm also finally able to start going to the weekly X-wing night, and I plan on playing I5-less 5A (probably 5 greens to start) just to see how it feels.

21 minutes ago, Makaze said:

I'm not sure that's true though. The frustrating, not necessarily OP but frustrating, feeling I get from RZ2s is that they remind me effectively of 1.0 turrets. They almost always have a shot, it's almost always modified, and because they don't particularly have to care about facing they have a wide variety of move choices available. It's that last part that bothers me. Typically I can look at a ship and run through the list of reasonable moves and rank them for risk vs reward and then take an educated guess about what the other player will do. With RZ2s... half or more of the dial gives them a shot so it's a pure guessing game. A game where I'm right half the time and they're right all the time, the saving grace is that they're not very good at killing things without good variance so it evens out hence them not actually being OP.

But it's a weird thing where I feel like me and my opponent are playing very different games. I'm trying to predict largely unpredictable maneuvers and they're dicking around waiting for good dice. Again, just feeling, no basis in any objective sense

I mean, if I've got 5 ships on the board I'm likely going to be taking at least a couple modded shots. As far as the messing around waiting for variance, that's not really true. One of the things I love about playing the list is that I have an opportunity to get creative. Greer and Zari are by far my favorite two ships to play because they allow for so many more options despite their lower PS. Many of the games I win my opponent focuses down Tali and Lulo and I just have an I4, I3, and I1 left at game end.

All of this is why I don't mind the concept of Tali and Lulo going up, but I just don't think that Resistance is at all a problem in the meta so I wonder why we are calling for heads to roll.

The things that Resistance A-Wings do on a smaller scale are similar to what makes Fat Han or Fat Boba good.

• That is High Init + Multi Arc + Reposition + Access to Free Mods
• Alt Arc + Boost + Mods allows remarkably "open" dials at all times, especially at i5+.
• The opposing player has to account for a higher # of legitimately good movement options per turn.
• Many of those options end in having to defend, several lead to defending against "uncontested" shots.
• They keep their arcs on target in a fundamentally different way, there is less concern about forward momentum restricting attacking options on approach.
• Of course A-Wings that are flying away are....flying away so it leads to fully disengaging eventually rather than K-Turning engaging and immediately engaging ( but those are slightly more "predictable" options ).
• They also take damage, have low HP, and normally roll 2 reds which helps balance things.
• At lower init this combo is definitely reasonable, its one of the few things besides Iden and generally lower pt costs and higher HP counts that help balance out the many problems low init ships have.

I dont at all want to see Resistance A-Wings or even 5 A-Wings nerfed beyond repair. They are fun, they zip around, shooting constantly, and have tons of options every turn I get it. Trouble is they are fun because they push the boundaries of "normal" movement which matters more in these early days of 2.0 ( and will hopefully always matter) and has to get costed correctly. I do think the two i5 named ones will go up some what significantly at least to the point that some upgrades or mid init names drop out of the list. If the Generic costs are left at current cost (they probably should stay low ) it implies substantial decreases to standard 2 dice generics across all other factions ( Tie Fighters, Z95s, Sycks, Tie FOs) which is overdue and would be welcomed by many anyway.

Multiple arcs are mechanically ok and can exist its just when paired with high init repositions or rotations & mods where one of those three things is "free" that costs need to go up accordingly. Something isn't scaling correctly here.

It was true for Boba before and its probably true for i5 As and YT1300s now.

4 minutes ago, Micanthropyre said:

Should a particular pilot be judged by the %inclusion of their faction (especially when the faction has very limited options, seeing as the Resistance YT is pretty overpriced and apparently the Starfortress isn't good either) or should the pilot be judged as a part of the meta as a whole? I know you've got a lot of data, whats the up-to-date conversion rate on Resistance, and how often do they win tournaments?

Well, I think a lot of it is that Resistance list building often starts at 38-40 points and goes from there. Lulo is a building block that almost every other list starts from. Then count to 200 from there. When you look at the initiative, dial, rear arc and offensive output there's a lot of other factions that are just criminally sad. Look at Lulo vs a 44 point Zealous Fang. Or Lulo vs a 42 point Duchess. As more ships come to the Resistance it's more stuff to build a list around.

1 minute ago, viedit said:

Well, I think a lot of it is that Resistance list building often starts at 38-40 points and goes from there. Lulo is a building block that almost every other list starts from. Then count to 200 from there. When you look at the initiative, dial, rear arc and offensive output there's a lot of other factions that are just criminally sad. Look at Lulo vs a 44 point Zealous Fang. Or Lulo vs a 42 point Duchess. As more ships come to the Resistance it's more stuff to build a list around.

Definitely a good thought. I've decided to revise my opinion on Tali and Lulo and present to you the bare minimum list that I think you could leave 5A that includes the I5s:

Blue Squadron Recruit (32)
Heroic (1)
Advanced Optics (4)

Ship total: 37 Half Points: 19 Threshold: 2

Blue Squadron Recruit (32)
Heroic (1)
Advanced Optics (4)

Ship total: 37 Half Points: 19 Threshold: 2

Blue Squadron Recruit (32)
Heroic (1)
Advanced Optics (4)

Ship total: 37 Half Points: 19 Threshold: 2

Tallissan Lintra (35)
Heroic (1)
Crack Shot (1)
Advanced Optics (4)

Ship total: 41 Half Points: 21 Threshold: 2

L'ulo L'ampar (38)
Heroic (1)
Crack Shot (1)

Ship total: 40 Half Points: 20 Threshold: 2


Total: 192

As you can see, if you increase Tali and Lulo by a total of 8 points I think the list is still competitive. I'm not sure about Greer and Zari, as I think they already require a lot more thought and honestly I'm probably too biased in their favor to offer a truly good proposal.

12 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

No, at least Lulo has to increase by much more than just 5. He is in basically every resistance list, and that's as clear a sign as it can get.

That's super interesting:

• They almost always have a shot?
  • The i5, yes, because they get to reposition twice if necessary. The low i ships (1 and 3) get regularly arcdodged and have much fewer shots on target. Part of the reason, I'd wager, that the named mix is the list that had most success - by far!
• it's almost always modified?
  • Only if they shoot before you, otherwise they lost their focus and are reliant on the dice gods. Of course you can't shoot all of them, but see the previous point, you can arcdodge some and shoot the others.
• and because they don't particularly have to care about facing they have a wide variety of move choices available?
  • I don't believe you because there is a very simple trick to that: if you disengage, they have to come around and give their action to turn the turret. Of course that's "free", but it still means they won't boost, so it's not free. The exception are the i5 ships as they get to decide on their arc after you moved.

There are two ways you could convince yourself: play the list, or play i5-i6 against it.

• Yes, they almost always have a shot. It's not all that hard to open up the arc and cover a wide range. It's not always a good shot or against the target you really want but yeah, in my experience, they will generally have a shot
• The only time they don't is if they need to boost->rotate. Any other time they have a focus. That happens, hence the qualifier "almost". But yeah, again in my experience they generally have a focus. You are correct though that a lot are spent on defense, so point taken there
• If you disengage then they don't take any return shots and you given them that chance to safely rotate the following turn before reengaging. Sure disengagement can sometimes be the right call but it hardly seems like some sort of silver bullet grand strategy

I have played them, that's when I put my finger on what I dislike about them. Was agonizing over my dials and it dawned on me that it just didn't matter. I could go any direction and still get a shot but my opponent had only about a 1 in 3 chance of guessing right and getting one. They had no way of knowing which way I'd go because all of my options were equally good. For some reason I'm OK with dice randomness but that aspect of randomness bothered me. Again, feeling

If you aren't running the named across the board, you probably aren't making cut. Summoning the great stats wizard... @GreenDragoon.....are there any meaningful cut rates for 5a lists using only two named A's?

6 minutes ago, Micanthropyre said:

I'm not sure how to phrase this without sounding argumentative, because I'm honestly not trying to be so I'll just write this preface.

It sounded fine to me, but better safe than sorry!

8 minutes ago, Micanthropyre said:

Should a particular pilot be judged by the %inclusion of their faction (especially when the faction has very limited options, seeing as the Resistance YT is pretty overpriced and apparently the Starfortress isn't good either) or should the pilot be judged as a part of the meta as a whole? I know you've got a lot of data, whats the up-to-date conversion rate on Resistance, and how often do they win tournaments?

I don't have any upcoming tournaments but I'm also finally able to start going to the weekly X-wing night, and I plan on playing I5-less 5A (probably 5 greens to start) just to see how it feels. 

The main thing should be their impact on the meta. But, I think a very high inclusion rate is a good indicator. Generally, auto includes are worth paying attention to, as they always highlight some problem. Lulo in particular for wave 3 is the ship with highest % (at 79%) and one of the three most frequent pilots by absolute numbers. Add on top that resistance is not played as frequently anymore (all 5 factions except rebel/imperial are on a similar level). I don't have the conversion rate ready, but that is anyway dragged down a lot by all the abyssmal resi5tance results (just 1 out of 20 made cut!), even though we know that list has been doing very well before.

Its interesting to compare these two ships. Same init. About a 1 hp difference in terms of Durability. 34 vs 36 pts. Is Boost undercosted?

Im guessing the Generic SF here is just a bit overcosted and the Generic A is pretty much fine.

1 minute ago, Boom Owl said:

Its interesting to compare these two ships. Same init. About a 1 hp difference in terms of Durability. 34 vs 36 pts. Is Boost undercosted?

Angle boost is the most ridiculous thing in the entire game of X-wing. Fanatical is an awesome EPT. I'm sure that the expected hits on Optics Fanatical Omegas is excellent. If Omegas were dropped to 34 and you could fly 5 Optics Fanatical of them, how good would they be?

24 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Trouble is they are fun because they push the boundaries of "normal" movement which matters more in these early days of 2.0 ( and will hopefully always matter) and has to get costed correctly

I think this is a huge part of it. 2.0, with some notable exceptions, made dials matter more. RZ2s don't care as much about their dial as much as most 2.0 ships and so it seems like they should be paying a premium for that privilege and yet are dirt cheap

5 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Is Boost undercosted?

Yes

Playing against it with high Init definitely swings things. The I1s/I3s have to gamble on their rotate/boost and then it becomes much easier to navigate them, if you aren't too predictable.

Going against it, I've used Fenn + 3, Anakin + 2x 7FG I2 ARCs, Rex + Echo + 7th Sis and Swarm Fenn + Recruit + AdvS Dalan. Every game was winnable (2/2 record, close on the losses) thanks to the higher Init pilots.

Fenn and Anakin in particular just munched them up, despite their wingmates going up in flames.

Personal highlight. Fenn +3 getting absolutely wrecked until a disengaged Fenn turned back in and 1 shotted 4 As in consecutive turns, 2 and 3 were full health

13 minutes ago, viedit said:

If you aren't running the named across the board, you probably aren't making cut. Summoning the great stats wizard... @GreenDragoon.....are there any meaningful cut rates for 5a lists using only two named A's?

I'll have a look, combining wave 2 and 3 should be ok for this question. I'll let you know what I find

26 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

It was true for Boba before and its probably true for i5 As and YT1300s now.

With Inertial Dampeners and Kanan crew. Without those two upgrades a YT-1300 running Luke Gunner is allot more predictable positioning wise and can be countered, even with the "free" rotate.

2 minutes ago, Makaze said:

I think this is a huge part of it. 2.0, with some notable exceptions, made dials matter more. RZ2s don't care as much about their dial as much as most 2.0 ships and so it seems like they should be paying a premium for that privilege and yet are dirt cheap

I just don't agree that setting your maneuver doesn't really matter. It doesn't matter as much for turn 2 of the actual engagement, but there are a lot of tough decisions. Sometimes it's correct to dial in the straight so you get another shot out the rear arc, but now you are going to add an extra turn until you can get back into the fight. I don't know who you are playing against or what your success rate was, but each maneuver that I dial in feels significant.

The one thing I'll give against the RZ2 chassis as a whole is that blue 3 banks were probably a bad idea. With that 3 bank blue you have such incredible range control on the opening turns of the game that you can flex your killbox to an insane degree, which means you'll rarely get a poor engagement if you are playing well.

34 minutes ago, Micanthropyre said:

Should a particular pilot be judged by the %inclusion of their faction (especially when the faction has very limited options, seeing as the Resistance YT is pretty overpriced and apparently the Starfortress isn't good either) or should the pilot be judged as a part of the meta as a whole?

Yes on both? Whether the pilot is an auto-include because the faction is just poorly priced or because it's too efficient, being an auto-include is a problem regardless.

In this case, I think we have evidence that both the Starfortress and the YT should be price adjusted, but also that Lulo is just way too good for her points. When the running joke is "Resistance list building starts at 162 points"...then the pilot is probably too good.

Contrast with FO...lots of non-viable pilots, so a few rise above, but nothing is auto-include necessarily. (Kylo gets closest maybe, but it's not comparable to Lulo IMO.)

27 minutes ago, viedit said:

If you aren't running the named across the board, you probably aren't making cut. Summoning the great stats wizard... @GreenDragoon.....are there any meaningful cut rates for 5a lists using only two named A's?

Two 5A lists made the UK SO cut at the weekend. One went 6-0 and the other 5-1. Unfortunately out of the 62 in the cut they got matched against each other.

Very few 5A lists on the tables on both days. But Lulo is pretty much an auto-include for Resistance.

I'd hate to see a harsh nerf that removes the viability of 5As. Its great fun to fly, but can be incredibly unforgiving and most games are very close. The only players I have found that really complain about my 5A list are those who have let themselves be kited around the board all game.

Also, Greer is good.

3 minutes ago, MCRemix said:

Yes on both? Whether the pilot is an auto-include because the faction is just poorly priced or because it's too efficient, being an auto-include is a problem regardless.

In this case, I think we have evidence that both the Starfortress and the YT should be price adjusted, but also that Lulo is just way too good for her points. When the running joke is "Resistance list building starts at 162 points"...then the pilot is probably too good.

Contrast with FO...lots of non-viable pilots, so a few rise above, but nothing is auto-include necessarily. (Kylo gets closest maybe, but it's not comparable to Lulo IMO.)

As long as Resistance viability as a whole doesn't tank in the process. The win rates just aren't showing that Resistance is killing it with their static building block. I could see if there were anything at all in the same point range as Lulo that could maybe fill in.... but all that the inclusion rate is telling me is that Resistance doesn't have enough other stuff priced at a point where it competes with Lulo.

Resistance is sort of awkwardly built as a faction: you have T70s in the 50+ point range, YT1300s and StarFortresses in the big bulky higher points range, and then the only "filler" or "pocket ace" ship is the RZ2. FO on the other hand has TIE/FO and the SF that come in under 50 points with some upgrades, Republic has all of their ships that can come in under 50, and CIS I actually think is generally overcosted across the board.

Lu'lo is underpriced both compared to other RZ-2s and also compared to almost any other pilot that costs 34-42 points

He is probably undercosted, but I also suspect his high include % is also due to the resistance having only 4 ships.

1 minute ago, svelok said:

Lu'lo is underpriced both compared to other RZ-2s and also compared to almost any other pilot that costs 34-42 points

Black Squadron Scout (Striker) 38 pts

Lulo Lampar 38 pts

I see a problem...

So, Awings wave 2 and 3: just 21 times out of 1106 squads, 21/174 lists with RZ2As: 61 times 1, 56 times 2, 27 times 3, 8 times 4, 21 times 5, and once 6 awings. That is a very small amount anyway, and drawing anything from it is shaky.

Looking at those 21 squads, 19 had 3 or 4 named pilots... Those without went 1-5 and 2-4.

edit: the other 19 went:

1x 1-5
1x 2-4
5x 3-3
6x 4-2
4x 5-1
2x 6-0

So, clearly better.