Thoughts on Hyperspace:

• Rule of 2.5 - Not sure which Australian invented this rule, but its true. You face a definite mix of unknown and known lists in Swiss.
• 5 Resistance As will have a lot less room for Upgrades after the next pt adjust.
• Two Resistance 4 Ship Lists still seem perfectly fine for this meta ( Quad 5s, Poe + 2i5s + 1 )
• Empire now has 2 legitimate Archetypes for the format. Tie Swarm and Vader/Soontir+ ( Not Tie Salad )
• Tie Swarms are not popular but they are occasionally used and do ok. This is their "end-state".
• High Init Torps + Leia are difficult but possible to avoid. Its remarkable how much "safe space" on the board White K-Turns remove, along with how much pressure it puts on the damage race.
• Republic is as good as I thought it would be. Take at least 1 7b 3 Force Jedi and go. You will win games because of High Init, High Mobility, High HP, and Passive Modification.
• Republic Beef is also at minimum Swiss worthy. Joust + Rear Arcs + High Hp = Fine and basically what Leia does.
• Rebel Beef is excellent but my perception is that players are getting "bored" of running it.
• Han is great in hyperspace to and might benefit from slightly lower ship counts.
• First Order is solid but not over-powered. Several First Order ships are pretty good but none of them are S-Tier or in need of pt increases.
• Scum, I would be comfortable taking Fenn/Guri/Old T or Fenn/4 Zealous or Boba+ to a Trial if the goal is just to get dice.

General Hyperspace Trials:

• With Practice and Clear Decision making you can still take almost anything "logical" and make cut.
• There are a ton of logical lists. Many of which are not in the data or being tracked at all which is funny because its a "smaller" card pool.
• Im not talking about Snowflake Jank, just well optimized lists with High Init pieces or Beefy low init lists from almost any of the factions.

3 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

5 Resistance As will have a lot less room for Upgrades after the next pt adjust. 

I see it coming, but I also disagree if they all get a similar treatment. i5 is the problem, the others are just slightly too expensive (1-2pts). And of course Lulo is even worse than Tallie.

12 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Rule of 2.5 - Not sure which Australian invented this rule, but its true. You face a definite mix of unknown and known lists in Swiss.

Hmm, what's this?

@Boom Owl

What is the rule of 2.5?

Also, Vader/Soontir + (not Tie salad)? Are you talking about something like soontir + barrage bombers etc?

What happened to the Vader Vermiel countdown Hask list? I thought you gents loved that?

3 minutes ago, Darth Seridur said:

What happened to the Vader Vermiel countdown Hask list? I thought you gents loved that?

I love playing those lists (Advanced Ailerons is a way of life ) and they are firmly in the "ok" category but they just flat out aren't as good as 2xi6 + things.

Mainly because ship counts are dropping closer to 3-4 and High Init gets to definitely shoot and to movement cheat a bit more.

Vader Vermiel Countdown Hask is to wholesome for Hyperspace now. Republic, Soontir, and B-Wings have escalated the power level beyond its reach.

Rule of 2.5 and I am paraphrasing here just means you will face on average about that # of "meta" lists in Swiss. Rest will be random decent things.

1 hour ago, Oldpara said:

Coming back from UK SOS I must say meta feels like 1.0. Broken Han/Quad Phantoms/Rebel Beef everywhere

It was fast like 6 moths into game?

I enjoy the game anyway, just saying

Was Han that prevalent?

16 hours ago, Kieransi said:

Yep. Other than Jukey Bois (tm) and Kanan, Hyperspace vs Extended is a largely meaningless debate. With those exceptions, the only other difference is a bunch of suboptimal stuff in Extended sitting on the bottom tables

Yep. Other than a couple of cancers, you're perfectly healthy. With those exceptions, the rest of tumors appear benign.

+ =

4 minutes ago, jagsba said:

Yep. Other than a couple of cancers, you're perfectly healthy. With those exceptions, the rest of tumors appear benign.

Joke aside, do you see stuff in hyperspace that is as bad for that format as massed phantoms (and arguably Han) are for extended? Because I don't, I think there are different stages of cancer. A spot on the shoulder is not full on metatasized lung cancer.

23 minutes ago, Darth Seridur said:

@Boom Owl

What is the rule of 2.5?

Also, Vader/Soontir + (not Tie salad)? Are you talking about something like soontir + barrage bombers etc?

What happened to the Vader Vermiel countdown Hask list? I thought you gents loved that?

Rule of 2.5 is that in 6 rounds of swiss, 2.5 of them will be "Top tier meta lists". That number goes up considerably as you get to top tables/cut.

As for the "Empire Good Stuff"... Republic lists basically render death troopers useless. Jedi don't really stress. Arcs don't care. The risk of CIS and ESC spam along with high ship count makes countdown vulnerable if you can't pop something early. Plus you can trade out Gideon and Vermeil for another i6 Ace and two almost always on 3 dice attacks that negate range bonuses at r3. They are beefy, can block, and are just generally very good noise to punish opponents that ignore them. It's a much more forgiving formation where every piece can operate much more independent of one another and you don't rely on Vader rolling in and getting the damage spike going like you do with the Vader/Vermeil/Gideon one.

25 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Joke aside, do you see stuff in hyperspace that is as bad for that format as massed phantoms (and arguably Han) are for extended? Because I don't, I think there are different stages of cancer. A spot on the shoulder is not full on metatasized lung cancer.

Nothing that's really being played. There are cards waiting to be broken though.

Supernatural, Cassian crew, informant, saesee tiin. The base regening ID Han interaction.

Less ways to break them though.

34 minutes ago, gennataos said:

Was Han that prevalent?

I saw very few. I didn't even see as many Drea scurrgs/ quad phantoms as i expected. Fair amount of rebel beef. But saw lots of variety. (Imp aces, scum, swarms etc)

And speaking to 6 clubmates, they all had huge variety in their match ups as well.

Rule of 2.5: here's an example in practice: https://listfortress.com/tournaments/546

This is the most recent large tournament with full matchup data, so you can follow the winning list - Sinker + 104th + 4 Torrents, itself not really a "meta" list - and see what it faced.

It fought one TIE Swarm and Obi + 3 ARCS ("known" builds), had a round 1 bye, and then faced 3 random, non-standard rebel 4-ship lists.

So of his 5 swiss matchups, 2 lists were meta builds and 3 were just some random lists that kinda resembled known stuff.

42 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Joke aside, do you see stuff in hyperspace that is as bad for that format as massed phantoms (and arguably Han) are for extended? Because I don't, I think there are different stages of cancer. A spot on the shoulder is not full on metatasized lung cancer.

I might be wrong because I have yet to play extended, but imo rebel beef is worse for hyperspace than 4 phantoms for extended

10 minutes ago, svelok said:

Rule of 2.5: here's an example in practice: https://listfortress.com/tournaments/546

This is the most recent large tournament with full matchup data, so you can follow the winning list - Sinker + 104th + 4 Torrents, itself not really a "meta" list - and see what it faced.

It fought one TIE Swarm and Obi + 3 ARCS ("known" builds), had a round 1 bye, and then faced 3 random, non-standard rebel 4-ship lists.

So of his 5 swiss matchups, 2 lists were meta builds and 3 were just some random lists that kinda resembled known stuff.

Wait, you can see matchup in listfortess? Is it possible to learn this power?

What's a non standard 4 rebel list?

1 hour ago, Boom Owl said:

Tie Swarms are not popular but they are occasionally used and do ok. This is their "end-state". 

If Pink Squadron is correct, they're the second best performing archetype in terms of "percentile" performance in this wave analysis, only being beat by quad fangs. They're still holding strong for now.

However, assuming by "end-state" you mean they're not getting any better, we've pretty much run the gauntlet on permutations and people are slowly getting better at facing them...yes. They're probably going to stay exactly where they are, people don't love flying them, but they're solid and can get you into the cut if you don't fly them like a buffoon.

1 hour ago, Boom Owl said:

• 5 Resistance As will have a lot less room for Upgrades after the next pt adjust.

As a 5A player, every game I've played where dice variance wasn't an issue was really close (I've had one pretty bad loss on variance and one win that was definitely skewed a lot in my favor by dice). If you increase the points by more than 4-6 across the entire list, you risk completely killing the list off. Make me cut either heroic OR crack shot and I'm probably still okay-ish, more than that and it probably isn't a "logical" list anymore. If the community finds 5A to be really un-fun to play against, or if there is something that 5A is gatekeeping out of the meta (which I doubt, it isn't really played that much) I could see reason to price it out of the meta.

I was a defender of Extended pre-points change, but now.... I dunno man it kinda seems worse after the change. If Hyperspace is good and fun and you can win with any of the long list of logical lists.... why are we worried about changing the balance? Just a casual look at the most recent Hyperspace Trials, 5A shows up and even has a strong showing but rarely wins, and the same goes for other Resistance lists that play Tali and Lulo.

10 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

Wait, you can see matchup in listfortess? Is it possible to learn this power?

What's a non standard 4 rebel list?

If the TO exported it, it's at the very bottom of the page.

33 minutes ago, jagsba said:

Nothing that's really being played. There are cards waiting to be broken though.

Supernatural, Cassian crew, informant, saesee tiin. The base regening ID Han interaction.

Less ways to break them though.

In general, I agree, and as they expand the Hyperspace pool (without pulling anything back), they end up creating combos that might be an issue since it just becomes closer to extended. Of course, of the ones you mentioned aren't a problem in extended with the exception of recent concern about Han. That doesn't meant they won't be and, in a smaller card pool, different cards can rise to the top and create interactions that don't have counters that are in the full card pool.

@Boom Owl I also forgot to mention in my post that I really do agree with the vast majority of your points but got caught up in the 5A part.

I don't know what the answer is in Scum. When list building I love the anchor components of Boba, Guri, Old T and Fenn but I can't really make a list that feels good with it. I think Kad Solus needs a slight points drop to get into true "Pocket Ace" form and maybe that would give me the space I need.

3 minutes ago, Micanthropyre said:

@Boom Owl I also forgot to mention in my post that I really do agree with the vast majority of your points but got caught up in the 5A part.

I don't know what the answer is in Scum. When list building I love the anchor components of Boba, Guri, Old T and Fenn but I can't really make a list that feels good with it. I think Kad Solus needs a slight points drop to get into true "Pocket Ace" form and maybe that would give me the space I need. 

Han + Fenn + Old T is very strong and has favorable matchups vs a lot of things out there.

18 minutes ago, Micanthropyre said:

If you increase the points by more than 4-6 across the entire list, you risk completely killing the list off.

If the community finds 5A to be really un-fun to play against

I can't speak for the community, but I've found them pretty un-fun to face...although I can't put my finger on exactly why and it might just be "because they're a little too good".

It feels like you should be able to fit 5 generics with heroic and not much else. Is that too much to lose for the list to be viable?

12 minutes ago, viedit said:

Han + Fenn + Old T is very strong and has favorable matchups vs a lot of things out there.

I've been playing this some and it's got mostly great matchups...except against the most common one out there (rebel beef).

1 hour ago, gennataos said:

Was Han that prevalent?

Hmm... not yet. Few but successful.

But ppl will learn quickly: when in the game about moves, arcs and actions you can have ship that break all those rules, just take it.

Han dialing one maneuver can land in 8 different places (stop, stop +3x boost, move, move+3x boost) so is unbumpable, doesn't care about stress (Kannan), doesn't care about arcs (Luke) have enormous action economy (action + 2 Force, one might be Turret rotate at I7) and can regenerate shields reroling all negative effects.

I wonder if we have already reached 1.0 lvl of brokeness and NPE

1 minute ago, MCRemix said:

I can't speak for the community, but I've found them pretty un-fun to face...although I can't put my finger on exactly why and it might just be "because they're a little too good".

It feels like you should be able to fit 5 generics with heroic and not much else. Is that too much to lose for the list to be viable?

When they god roll their defense dice it does feel pretty bad. They key is to just focus down one and get it gone early. The 5A list snowballs fast if you start taking firing arcs off the board early.

So speaking of republic beef, it's really strong in hyperspace. I went 8-1 to reach the ATL trials final table like 2 weeks ago with it, idk why it's not in list fortress. Ashoka 2 arcs and 2 torrents is straight fire, it gives you just enough beef to survive rebel beef alpha and come out on top by blocking everything next turn. You have so many firing arcs that you also really put the pressure on aces, which I did twice vs resistance aces that day. Ashoka is either your ace that flanks their jousting list or helps cover the flanks of your list vs aces and still gives you all the actions. I'd expect to see a lot more of it these next few months.