11 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

That neither of you realize how close to "If I can't have it no one can." your arguments for nuking the upgrade into oblivion sounds is saddening.

Right now, Phantoms/Defenders always take Juke, and nothing else does. Raising the prices of those platforms doesn't have any impact on that paradigm - 60 point Phantoms would never see the table, but when they did, they would still always take Juke.

The existence of the upgrade directly reduces the number of interesting decisions available during listbuilding.

Variable pricing for upgrades already exists so it's not a huge leap for the designers to say "Juke costs X except on chassis A, B, and C where it costs Y". I'd rather they didn't solve all problems that way since it makes squad building increasingly opaque as the number of variable cost upgrades increases, but it does seem like a reasonable solution here.

Just now, Transmogrifier said:

Variable pricing for upgrades already exists so it's not a huge leap for the designers to say "Juke costs X except on chassis A, B, and C where it costs Y". I'd rather they didn't solve all problems that way since it makes squad building increasingly opaque as the number of variable cost upgrades increases, but it does seem like a reasonable solution here.

I would actually be fine with this solution for Juke, but I don't see it happening and jesus does it open a can of worms.

25 minutes ago, Micanthropyre said:

What are you trying to put Juke on where you don't want it to go away? Why is it important for this single upgrade to exist?

Before the first points adjustment I was using it on Scyks as I outlined previously and it had similar utility on /Lns and other cheap evade ships. Scyks can still use it right now since their adjustment was a net reduction with Juke's pricing. If Juke goes up more that dies.

23 minutes ago, Brunas said:

Juke isn't even a decision at the current price, much less if it were to get cheaper.

Current price of the cheaper free evade ships yes. Current price of the upgrade barely factors in.

26 minutes ago, Transmogrifier said:

Variable pricing for upgrades already exists so it's not a huge leap for the designers to say "Juke costs X except on chassis A, B, and C where it costs Y". I'd rather they didn't solve all problems that way since it makes squad building increasingly opaque as the number of variable cost upgrades increases, but it does seem like a reasonable solution here.

Could even tie it to initiative. Shooting first when Juking is pretty powerful. That lets @Hiemfire do his thing with Scyks, keeps it reasonable for one high init ship and limits in swarms of high init ships.

Playing Juke Scyks is already pretty deep into "do what you want man" territory. If Juke went up to 8 and all Scyks went down by 3 would it really matter?

Yoink the talent slot on the Phantoms then.

4 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Yoink the talent slot on the Phantoms then.

1 hour ago, Hiemfire said:

That neither of you realize how close to "If I can't have it no one can." your arguments for nuking the upgrade into oblivion sounds is saddening.

5 minutes ago, svelok said:

Fair to a point. Pulling the slot affects 1 ship (totaling 4 pilots), which apparently would be running with the slot empty anyways if Juke gets nuked. Nuking the upgrade affects every ship with a talent slot and the evade action.

Don’t forget Naboo N1 fighters will soon be added to the short list of ships that can generate a free evade token.

1 minute ago, Dreadai said:

Don’t forget Naboo N1 fighters will soon be added to the short list of ships that can generate a free evade token.

I'm aware... Thankfully they're a 2 die primary.

2 hours ago, Transmogrifier said:

Variable pricing for upgrades already exists so it's not a huge leap for the designers to say "Juke costs X except on chassis A, B, and C where it costs Y". I'd rather they didn't solve all problems that way since it makes squad building increasingly opaque as the number of variable cost upgrades increases, but it does seem like a reasonable solution here.

Yeah, I agree they could - im unsure they want to go that complicated with pricing rules. But I agree it could address it.

55 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Fair to a point. Pulling the slot affects 1 ship (totaling 4 pilots), which apparently would be running with the slot empty anyways if Juke gets nuked. Nuking the upgrade affects every ship with a talent slot and the evade action.

And Defenders.

And N-1s (they'll still staple juke - turns out 2 die shots are pretty good when modded AND modding my opponents defense dice)

21 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

And Defenders.

And N-1s (they'll still staple juke - turns out 2 die shots are pretty good when modded AND modding my opponents defense dice)

Iirc Brath made cut Friday but was the only Defender to do so. They'll need to be looked at (not necessarily adjusted though) when Phantoms have been reigned in a bit, but right now their price is a large mitigating factor.

N-1s: is Juke + Focus 2 Red better than plain 3 Red + Focus by a significant margin if at all?

4 hours ago, Tlfj200 said:

while we’re at it - trick shot is too cheap, too.

Statements like this remind me how much more wholesome the power level has become since 1.0.

Trickshot was literally free and I can count on one hand the number of times I saw it.

How many rebel lists in the cut had leia?

I'd have to look more closely at the data, but my impression is that most ships have a pretty defined, or at least narrow, choice for the PT slot. I think there's a lot of reasons for that, but I don't think the phantom is unique in that regard. It's more telling to me that the next best list for Imperials looks like it is Vader with 3 phantoms (and no ept).

31 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

And Defenders.

And N-1s (they'll still staple juke - turns out 2 die shots are pretty good when modded AND modding my opponents defense dice)

His point was that the only one that it seems to be problematic on is phantoms right now, so it's better to pull the talent slot from the phantom. The defender hasn't been able to abuse it, even though it's an ideal card for that ship, because it can really only fit two in a list comfortably.

13 minutes ago, powersink said:

How many rebel lists in the cut had leia?

All of them.

https://listfortress.com/tournaments/495

18 hours ago, Tlfj200 said:

But like, we literally lose nothing if juke is nuked - it's never played (correctly) without free evades on a ship. Let it die.

If Juke does get priced out of use, the Phantom chassis might be at or above playable cost🤔

3 hours ago, Micanthropyre said:

The problem with pricing the chassis is that with defenders, phantoms, and n1s is that you'd need to account for juke when costing them, meaning that you probably aren't getting your money's worth unless you staple Juke to it, which stinks. Instead just take juke out of the game and don't worry about it. Increase Juke and defenders can all drop three points, and the phantoms can all stay pretty close to where they are points wise.

I’d say drop Defenders all 3-4 and if Juke is dead, maybe double that drop?... oh, or maybe adjust poor Vessery post the 3-4 a bit more as his auto TL wingmate jumped faction and the Lambda ain’t gonna dance as well (and though I love her, she’s no looker).

9 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

All of them.

https://listfortress.com/tournaments/495

how many other rebel crew options made the cut?

8 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

If Juke does get priced out of use, the Phantom chassis might be at or above playable cost🤔

I’d say drop Defenders all 3-4 and if Juke is dead, maybe double that drop?... oh, or maybe adjust poor Vessery post the 3-4 a bit more as his auto TL wingmate jumped faction and the Lambda ain’t gonna dance as well (and though I love her, she’s no looker).

Look man, we know you want to fly ships that do whatever they want and get all the mods all for really cheap prices.

32 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Iirc Brath made cut Friday but was the only Defender to do so. They'll need to be looked at (not necessarily adjusted though) when Phantoms have been reigned in a bit, but right now their price is a large mitigating factor.

N-1s: is Juke + Focus 2 Red better than plain 3 Red + Focus by a significant margin if at all?

It is when it shoots later in the round (post focus spend):

3die + focus against 3 agility no token: http://xwing.gateofstorms.net/2/multi/?d=AwAAAAAAAAAA&a1=MQgAAAAAAAAA

2 die + focus/juke vs 3 agility no token: http://xwing.gateofstorms.net/2/multi/?d=AwAAAAAAAAAA&a1=IQgCAAABAAAA

Triple deltas without juke are still really good, hard to hit, hard to block, and likely unfun.

10 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

If Juke does get priced out of use, the Phantom chassis might be at or above playable cost🤔

Vader 3x Imdaar seems fine?

2 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

It is when it shoots later in the round (post focus spend):

3die + focus against 3 agility no token: http://xwing.gateofstorms.net/2/multi/?d=AwAAAAAAAAAA&a1=MQgAAAAAAAAA

2 die + focus/juke vs 3 agility no token: http://xwing.gateofstorms.net/2/multi/?d=AwAAAAAAAAAA&a1=IQgCAAABAAAA

Saving that evade for a later juke shot probably required a decision. I like decisions.

Just now, powersink said:

Saving that evade for a later juke shot probably required a decision. I like decisions.

Assuming you shot the n1, instead of a fellow jedi or something... sure?

2 minutes ago, powersink said:

how many other rebel crew options made the cut?

1 instance of Kanan, 1 of R2-D2 crew (both in Eide's list). 1 instance of Tac Officer. Leia makes up the rest of the crew taken in Rebel lists that made cut.