1 minute ago, Scott Pilgrim2 said:So is SNR and yet people don't complain about it being too expensive.
I don't think these are on the same level at all. Juke isn't the same problem by a mile (and really not the central problem with this list, imo, though the fact that it is very easy to trigger doesn't help). An upgrade like SNR, if too cheap, can render entire lists helpless and warp the meta on its own.
I will say, I felt like 8x Vultures can definitely be competitive.
I flew it 5 times this weekend and won 4, the loss being against BBB+Magva at 150-100. And even that game I engaged poorly, he selflessed a couple crits when those Bs weren’t in my arc (didn’t realize til it was too late to undo it), and he had a lot of naturally rolled hits with no mods behind them.
Also, I just had loads of fun this weekend, despite dropping out after round 3 both days to conserve my desire to play X-Wing 😅 Great to meet a few of you guys in passing!
An RZ-1 with Squad Leader is 34 point coordinate. Cheaper than AP-5, even. But with 3 agility and an actual dial.
Uh, I mean - nothing to see here, move along.
Edit: I've learned AP-5 is 32 points. Still, hyperspace legal.
Edited by svelok28 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:Juke enables an Evade token to act as a soft Jam... Getting free evade tokens while having Juke is the issue, not Juke itself...
True, but without the great synergy, the Sigma squad is then just OK, which is fine, but I think it’s the Empires best list. TIE Salad is not going to be able to beat Lea’s Beef I don’t think... which is fine, but I guess FFG will need to make cuts in many ships, not just the Phantom.
FYI, I’m speaking from observation only, I’ve not 2.0-ed anything beyond FO and (1) Resist squad... no dog in fight.
Just now, svelok said:Uh, I mean - nothing to see here, move along.
Correct. move along.
LOOK!!
ITS A MINING GUILD TIE!
THEY IGNORE ROCKS!!!
8 hours ago, Brunas said:
Lol, thanks. I was close to day 2, literally one die roll away (although my dice had been good in that game, so no complaints), but couldn't pull it off.
The squad is strong, but this is the first big tournament for me of 2.0, and the Sabers are just emotionally and mentally exhausting after that many games. So many on-edge moments, so many things that can go wrong. So much hoping that you don't roll below average and lose your range 1 bullseye shot. So much holding your breath when your opponent reveals dials to see if your block worked or if they saw it coming and effed you.
Probably going to take a bit of a break from the squad. I love it, but I need a rest after Adepticon.
Edited by Biophysical7 hours ago, clanofwolves said:Me too... @Biophysical is going to force my hand to delve back into squints I fear.
It's very satisfying, just, hard.
Wolffe Sinker 3x Torrents
Poe Lu'lo Tallie Bastion
Poe Lu'lo Tallie Blue Recruit
U-Wing 2x B-Wings 2x Y-Wings
... are the lists that went 6-0 in the hyperspace qualifier.
14 minutes ago, svelok said:Poe Lu'lo Tallie Blue Recruit
I think this one went up against a Wat + 5 ESC TFDs list in the final.
2 hours ago, svelok said:"Effective immediately, Sigma Squadron Ace..."
1.) Nothing, they'll wait until July
2.) Loses the talent slot
3.) Goes up to 51 points
4.) Some other fourth thing
I suspect Juke is actually the culprit (and phantoms are mildly too cheap).
Like, maybe 1-2 too cheap, @Brunas thinks 3-4.
But like, we literally lose nothing if juke is nuked - it's never played (correctly) without free evades on a ship. Let it die.
As for fortressing... *sigh*...
2 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:But like, we literally lose nothing if juke is nuked - it's never played (correctly) without free evades on a ship. Let it die.
🤨 Define "correctly". Do you mean like Hotshot gunner to set up a focus fire target for the rest of the squad at the cost of an action instead of just knowing how to maneuver or something else?
31 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:I suspect Juke is actually the culprit (and phantoms are mildly too cheap).
Like, maybe 1-2 too cheap, @Brunas thinks 3-4.
But like, we literally lose nothing if juke is nuked - it's never played (correctly) without free evades on a ship. Let it die.
As for fortressing... *sigh*...
Do you think 4 Sigmas with no talent is a good list? Seems solid to me. Not overpowering certainly, but definitely solid.
3 hours ago, AEIllingworth said:Looks like I barely squeaked past you, 226th!
85th at the system open, but 72nd in hyperspace.
I’m sorry I didn’t meet you guys.
46 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:🤨 Define "correctly". Do you mean like Hotshot gunner to set up a focus fire target for the rest of the squad at the cost of an action instead of just knowing how to maneuver or something else?
correctly as in its bad without a free evade. Focus is better for offense.
1 hour ago, svelok said:Wolffe Sinker 3x Torrents
Poe Lu'lo Tallie Bastion
Poe Lu'lo Tallie Blue Recruit
U-Wing 2x B-Wings 2x Y-Wings
... are the lists that went 6-0 in the hyperspace qualifier.
#teamgoodones. #teamawings
2 minutes ago, Do I need a Username said:correctly as in its bad without a free evade. Focus is better for offense.
Even more so when the target was forced to spend their tokens already.
3 hours ago, Tlfj200 said:I suspect Juke is actually the culprit (and phantoms are mildly too cheap).
Like, maybe 1-2 too cheap, @Brunas thinks 3-4.
But like, we literally lose nothing if juke is nuked - it's never played (correctly) without free evades on a ship. Let it die.
As for fortressing... *sigh*...
Juke should have been bullseye, but because it isn't it probably should just get nuked. 8 points probably leaves it in a "maybe whisper or a defender will take it but probably not" spot, but I 100% agree that we don't lose an important part of the game if it essentially goes away.
13 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:Haha Adepticon is getting better and better.
That was the Hyperspace Qualifier
13 hours ago, Biophysical said:Do you think 4 Sigmas with no talent is a good list? Seems solid to me. Not overpowering certainly, but definitely solid.
I do, like you said. Again, they’re probably too cheap, but not some vast amount (that’s a guess).
14 hours ago, Hiemfire said:🤨 Define "correctly". Do you mean like Hotshot gunner to set up a focus fire target for the rest of the squad at the cost of an action instead of just knowing how to maneuver or something else?
Juke without your own focus is almost always worse than straight up just having a focus without juke.
Rephrased, juke is a worse strategy than no juke UNLESS you have some offensive dice modifications from something (focus or otherwise).
So yeah - you’d lose the ‘choice’ to make a suboptimal choice if juke were priced correctly - and ‘correctly’ means knowing it’s stapled to things that get free evades plus normal modifications.
while we’re at it - trick shot is too cheap, too.
Edited by Tlfj20021 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:Juke without your own focus is almost always worse than straight up just having a focus without juke.
Rephrased, juke is a worse strategy than no juke UNLESS you have some offensive dice modifications from something (focus or otherwise).
So yeah - you’d lose the ‘choice’ to make a suboptimal choice if juke were priced correctly - and ‘correctly’ means knowing it’s stapled to things that get free evades plus normal modifications.
Looks like were from different school's of thought then. Nothing wrong with that. I don't just look at how an upgrade hyper optimizes the chassis it is on but what beneficial effect it'll have when taking the rest of the list into account. If the Juke equipped ship is the only ship with a shot at the target, which if I'm reading your response correctly is where your focus is, then Focus is the better choice. If the Juke equipped ship can use it's ability to strip a mod from a target that others in its squad will be shooting at then the following shots on the same target will be more likely to get through or, if the shots would get through anyways, have a stronger effect, then for the squad the Juke equipped ship Evading is the better choice. Outside of ships that get free Evades or Focuses, Juke is an upgrade aimed a increasing the power of the entire squad and not just the ship it is on. It is the very efficient token stackers (Phantoms, Defenders and soon the N-1s) that cause the nasty synergy we've been seeing. Price those chassis accordingly (as Defenders are) instead of killing Juke is the better idea. Laser focusing on an upgrade that can be a benefit to squads that don't have the free tokens just kills the upgrade...
Edited by Hiemfire4 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:Price those chassis accordingly (as Defenders are) instead of killing Juke is the better idea. Laser focusing on an upgrade that can be a benefit to squads that don't have the free tokens just kills the upgrade...
The problem with pricing the chassis is that with defenders, phantoms, and n1s is that you'd need to account for juke when costing them, meaning that you probably aren't getting your money's worth unless you staple Juke to it, which stinks. Instead just take juke out of the game and don't worry about it. Increase Juke and defenders can all drop three points, and the phantoms can all stay pretty close to where they are points wise.
16 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:It is the very efficient token stackers (Phantoms, Defenders and soon the N-1s) that cause the nasty synergy we've been seeing. Price those chassis accordingly (as Defenders are) instead of killing Juke is the better idea.
That doesn't change the status quo, where Juke is never put on anything except a handful of ships that never take anything but Juke (inclusive of "nothing").
Killing a card like that isn't really a major loss.
25 minutes ago, Micanthropyre said:The problem with pricing the chassis is that with defenders, phantoms, and n1s is that you'd need to account for juke when costing them, meaning that you probably aren't getting your money's worth unless you staple Juke to it, which stinks. Instead just take juke out of the game and don't worry about it. Increase Juke and defenders can all drop three points, and the phantoms can all stay pretty close to where they are points wise.
17 minutes ago, svelok said:That doesn't change the status quo, where Juke is never put on anything except a handful of ships that never take anything but Juke (inclusive of "nothing").
Killing a card like that isn't really a major loss.
That neither of you realize how close to "If I can't have it no one can." your arguments for nuking the upgrade into oblivion sounds is saddening.
There are 2 key things here that are the problems that manner Juke is being used is a symptom of. 1: The mind set that an upgrade must do something massively beneficial for the ship it is on before even taking into account the squad it is with (why Juke is "stapled" to ships with free evade), and 2: A 1.0 hangover reliance (**** it) addiction to token stacking to get what the player wants (why those ships are even being looked at). Both of which are central to the ships and not the upgrade.
4 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:
That neither of you realize how close to "If I can't have it no one can." your arguments for nuking the upgrade into oblivion sounds is saddening.
There are 2 key things here that are the problems that manner Juke is being used is a symptom of. 1: The mind set that an upgrade must do something massively beneficial for the ship it is on before even taking into account the squad it is with (why Juke is "stapled" to ships with free evade), and 2: A 1.0 hangover
reliance(**** it) addiction to token stacking to get what the player wants (why those ships are even being looked at). Both of which are central to the ships and not the upgrade.
Thinking that Juke is merely a "mind set" upgrade implies that people are taking it because of feelings rather than logic is totally bizarre to me. Both of your key things aren't even about the ships, they are about the players. I've played Juke on Duchess with the Fifth Brother on there because I have force point plus evade and it was great. Love that ship build, but once again its more that I'm abusing multiple modifications to multiply the value of Juke, which is what the real issue with the upgrade is: the design of Juke means that it's value is multiplied by certain game effects, and that is where "combo-wing" comes back to hurt the game.
Juke does so many things well for the ships that get a free evade action, exacerbates the initiative war (because being able to shoot before needing to spend the evade is a really big deal), is a passive offensive dice mod at best and at worst makes your target spend their token, which can translate into being a pseudo defensive mod as well. Of course, you'd think that the tradeoff is that you need to take an evade instead of a focus, but there are two (soon to be three) ships where on most turns that tradeoff doesn't exist.
What are you trying to put Juke on where you don't want it to go away? Why is it important for this single upgrade to exist?
If Juke is playable on ships that don't generate free evades, you agree that it would necessarily be stapled on ships that do generate free evades, right?
I don't think it's fun or interesting for every ship that generates free evades to basically not have an option for a talent, which is what would happen. Juke isn't even a decision at the current price, much less if it were to get cheaper.