13 hours ago, Cuz05 said:

As far as I can see, the support for the T-roll decision is that you complete the 3 hard manoeuvre, because template, then rotate it into T-roll.

Um....

Its a T-Roll from dial to final position. No part of it is a 3 hard, apart from the tool you use. So that T-roll manoeuvre is only complete when the ship is placed in it's final, rotated position of front, centre, or back.

Much like a 4k isn't a 4 straight, for the purposes of the crit. You don't do a 4 and then K it.

There's just a crappy bit of wording that makes parts of it seem separate, without actually saying they're separate.

Because they're not.

The thing about Koiogarn Turns and Segnor's Loops which breaks down for Talon Rolls is that there's no physical difference in the final position between a K or a Straight, a Segnors and a bank. In effect, you see if the straight or bank would fit, then flip. Due to base geometry, barring any warps, there's no difference between whether a K-Turn or Straight maneuver would fully execute. Only the final direction of the ship.

However, T-Roll has a wrinkle in that the final position *can* be different. It's not just the hash mark alignment. A 3 Hard could bump on the nubs, but the Talon Roll would clear, simply because there aren't nubs on the side. If for no other reason than the very rare "bump on the nubs," the guides-position-test can't work.

//

I'm also going to reiterate something.

There's at least two kinds of "bad" calls. I believe there can be, let's call them... valid and invalid calls. An example of an invalid call would be a judge treating Reinforce by it's 1e mechanics. There's no remotely valid interpretation of the text to support that. However, with Talon Rolls, the most convincing (hashmark alignment/final position test) interpretation requires a bit of interpretive work around what it means to fully execute a maneuver, and the less convincing (guides position test) interpretation has a little merit (not enough!) since the rules suggest you've got to fully execute before doing the twist.

While I think the final ruling was sub-optimal, I can't really call the decision invalid. It's not based in fantasy, but from a reading of the text. I'd call that reading valid but less nuanced and ultimately incorrect. Personally, I think the Bearing rule (p.6) isn't entirely enough, and it requires going also into the weeds on the Overlap rule (p.14) and how the game defines fully executing a maneuver.

This sentence from @KrisSherriff kind of gets to me. "It is important to note that a comma is used here not a full stop, a dependency clause exists here where it is impossible for you to fully execute the maneuver without placing the ship in its final position and rotating it 90 degrees." Using a comma as a full stop in a sentence describing how a rules interpretation hinges upon how a different comma isn't a full stop just kinda highlights that maybe this isn't some super obvious rule. This wasn't a ****up, so much as a judge making a call and going with the ultimately less persuasive interpretation.

2 hours ago, Bucknife said:

I vote Little Annie breaks the rules, too:

When performing a barrel roll, you may immediately perform two barrel rolls in the opposite direction. After performing a barrelroll, gain a "Good Trick" Token. During the game, you may spend any number of "Good Trick" tokens to pester your opponent.

FTFY

1 hour ago, KrisSherriff said:

n.b. Had I been playing at the event, or any other event, I would have respected the TO Ruling and gotten on with my life, after the event had finished I would have taken the time to calmly explain that I think they called that the incorrect way and asked them to take some time to look at it again without the stress of running an event and then left it there. being an *** to a Judge, TO or Marshal does no one any good.

For what it's worth, as the greedy Tallon Roller in question, this is basically what I did. It seemed really wonky and I made a very brief case against it but basically the judge's decision was the judge's decision and we moved on with no hard feelings and enjoyed the rest of the game.

Little did I expect there would be this much excitement about it. Sorry I Tallon Rolled, folks. I'll only ever K-Turn and S-Loop from now on, I promise.

Just now, DoubleDown11 said:

For what it's worth, as the greedy Tallon Roller in question, this is basically what I did. It seemed really wonky and I made a very brief case against it but basically the judge's decision was the judge's decision and we moved on with no hard feelings and enjoyed the rest of the game.

Little did I expect there would be this much excitement about it. Sorry I Tallon Rolled, folks. I'll only ever K-Turn and S-Loop from now on, I promise.

No matter what, I enjoyed watching the match. Good game and well done!

1 minute ago, DoubleDown11 said:

For what it's worth, as the greedy Tallon Roller in question, this is basically what I did. It seemed really wonky and I made a very brief case against it but basically the judge's decision was the judge's decision and we moved on with no hard feelings and enjoyed the rest of the game.

Little did I expect there would be this much excitement about it. Sorry I Tallon Rolled, folks. I'll only ever K-Turn and S-Loop from now on, I promise.

🤨 I hope your last line is sarcasm. They made the call they made and that was what you were stuck playing with, but they called it wrong and that call may have led to your loss. You played well and were performing the maneuver correctly.

1 minute ago, DoubleDown11 said:

For what it's worth, as the greedy Tallon Roller in question, this is basically what I did. It seemed really wonky and I made a very brief case against it but basically the judge's decision was the judge's decision and we moved on with no hard feelings and enjoyed the rest of the game.

Little did I expect there would be this much excitement about it. Sorry I Tallon Rolled, folks. I'll only ever K-Turn and S-Loop from now on, I promise.

It just feels bad, even secondhand. I commend you keeping your cool, because while I almost certainly would not have acted out, I would have been extremely upset.

7 minutes ago, DoubleDown11 said:

For what it's worth, as the greedy Tallon Roller in question, this is basically what I did. It seemed really wonky and I made a very brief case against it but basically the judge's decision was the judge's decision and we moved on with no hard feelings and enjoyed the rest of the game.

Little did I expect there would be this much excitement about it. Sorry I Tallon Rolled, folks. I'll only ever K-Turn and S-Loop from now on, I promise.

While I agree with the final call, it was amazingly tight even on camera, so I can only imagine how close it was in real life.

You both flew your assed off from there, and the game came down to the last few shots. It's unfortunate but definitely a great performance overall

Soooo...who called for the T-Roll ruling? The table judge or Calen? If it was the judge, things happen. If it was Calen....huh.

13 minutes ago, gennataos said:

Soooo...who called for the T-Roll ruling? The table judge or Calen? If it was the judge, things happen. If it was Calen....huh.

The judge. Grab yer torches N pitchforks! We’re invading the Canada Grand championship!

10 minutes ago, FlyingAnchors said:

The judge. Grab yer torches N pitchforks! We’re invading the Canada Grand championship!

I asked because the latest Mynock episode with Iain, they talked about people calling over a judge in the hopes of the judge ruling wrong in their favor. It felt like that to me.

Plus, I'm pretty sure you're incorrect.

40 minutes ago, FlyingAnchors said:

The judge. Grab yer torches N pitchforks! We’re invading the Canada Grand championship!

You can go without me - im out on Canadian events.

1 hour ago, DoubleDown11 said:

For what it's worth, as the greedy Tallon Roller in question, this is basically what I did. It seemed really wonky and I made a very brief case against it but basically the judge's decision was the judge's decision and we moved on with no hard feelings and enjoyed the rest of the game.

Little did I expect there would be this much excitement about it. Sorry I Tallon Rolled, folks. I'll only ever K-Turn and S-Loop from now on, I promise.

Hey, you had a great run and congratulations on your worlds invite. The ruling was counter to a lot of opinions, but yeah, judge ruling is what it is. I was standing about ten feet behind you during the talon roll deliberations talking with another local about how we'd hate to be a judge at that level.

FYI - I was the quad Phantom stepping stone on your great run.

2 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

You can go without me - im out on Canadian events.

Man I thought I made a strong argument with "beer".

1 hour ago, FlyingAnchors said:

The judge. Grab yer torches N pitchforks! We’re invading the Canada Grand championship!

Bring it. When the west sends the actual good Canadian players its a much harder task.

6 hours ago, KrisSherriff said:

comer

28 minutes ago, skotothalamos said:

Dyslexysiadadadjkbafjblfafgvag is fun.

ya'll fighting about Talon Rolls while I'm sitting here just happy that I can point to all the wholesome generics and post right here in the Krayt thread about how glad I am that Extended has saved X-wing.

2 minutes ago, Micanthropyre said:

ya'll fighting about Talon Rolls while I'm sitting here just happy that I can point to all the wholesome generics and post right here in the Krayt thread about how glad I am that Extended has saved X-wing.

No denying Rebel generics did good.

Heroic is underpriced

don't hate me just because I'm right

Just now, svelok said:

Heroic is underpriced

don't hate me just because I'm right

Ok

52 minutes ago, svelok said:

Heroic is underpriced

don't hate me just because I'm right

Maybe. Heroic is about as many evades per point as Elusive on an X-Wing, or about as many evades and hits per point as Lone Wolf on an A-Wing, or Predator and Elusive. But there aren't positional or dial-based components, and it doesn't have any charges to worry about.

And yet, I have a gut feeling that Heroic would be overpriced at 2 points. And I don't want to double all the points again.

12 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

While I think the final ruling was sub-optimal, I can't really call the decision invalid. It's not based in fantasy, but from a reading of the text. I'd call that reading valid but less nuanced and ultimately incorrect. Personally, I think the Bearing rule (p.6) isn't entirely enough, and it requires going also into the weeds on the Overlap rule (p.14) and how the game defines fully executing a maneuver.

This sentence from @KrisSherriff kind of gets to me. "It is important to note that a comma is used here not a full stop, a dependency clause exists here where it is impossible for you to fully execute the maneuver without placing the ship in its final position and rotating it 90 degrees." Using a comma as a full stop in a sentence describing how a rules interpretation hinges upon how a different comma isn't a full stop just kinda highlights that maybe this isn't some super obvious rule. This wasn't a ****up, so much as a judge making a call and going with the ultimately less persuasive interpretation.

That comma is some pretty terrible grammar, if you ask me.

I can see the logic you're referring to, executing the move and then rotating into the final position.

But the manoeuvre is a Talon Roll and nothing else, it can only be fully executed when the ship is placed in the final T-rolled position. I think it takes a leap to believe there is any fully executing to be done before rotating and lining up the hash. It even declares that you rotate before placing. By necessity, to fulfill the 1st part of the text, 'if the ship fully executed the manoeuvre', you have to check if any of the 3 final placements fit. If any of them do, the Talon Roll manouevre is able to be executed and Bobs your uncle.

I just don't see any other interpretation making sense in any context I'm afraid.

I'd be pretty surprised if this came up again in any major way, seems most people believe it works the way it should. I wouldn't be surprised to face the same misinterpretation in a local store though, so I want to make sure I'm faultless on it

19 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

That comma is some pretty terrible grammar, if you ask me.

I can see the logic you're referring to, executing the move and then rotating into the final position.

But the manoeuvre is a Talon Roll and nothing else, it can only be fully executed when the ship is placed in the final T-rolled position. I think it takes a leap to believe there is any fully executing to be done before rotating and lining up the hash. It even declares that you rotate before placing. By necessity, to fulfill the 1st part of the text, 'if the ship fully executed the manoeuvre', you have to check if any of the 3 final placements fit. If any of them do, the Talon Roll manouevre is able to be executed and Bobs your uncle.

I just don't see any other interpretation making sense in any context I'm afraid.

I'd be pretty surprised if this came up again in any major way, seems most people believe it works the way it should. I wouldn't be surprised to face the same misinterpretation in a local store though, so I want to make sure I'm faultless on it

I guess my thing is mostly that it's close enough to a Catch-22 that I can't really fault anyone for going the other way. I mean, it's pretty easy to read the rule as "you can't rotate the ship unless it fits, but you can't figure out if it fits if you don't rotate it."

One way out of that loop is to see if it fits without rotating. I think we've figured out that this isn't a great reading, and we've reached a better interpretation that you have to check the rotated and hash-aligned positions. I think the guides-placement test falls apart as you look at the rules more, but I've seen far worse interpretations.

The T roll call was an incredible exercise of stretching rules and it was even worse than it sounds since it came from the judge, not from a player.

Mistakes and bad call happen: after all xwing judges are unpaid human beings and have every right to be wrong once in a while. A proper TO should have apologized for the bad call, but since they still defend the not interference bull of last year can't we just call it a Canadian weirdness and move one?

Changing subject, anyone else think ace gameplay (in the arc dodging declination of the term) is death and buried?

Granting half points when the ace is halved was already making it incredibly hard, now that bull like redline and whisper vader are gone and SN is merged, all that's left is initiative kill as the last and superior form of arc dodging

There were a couple of rules clarifications made prior to Phoenix, and I thought that was really smart by the judges. Until FFG puts out an official ruling, this just needs to be added to the list of things that should be clarified before an event.

Honestly, it makes for a "cleaner" game the way it was ruled in Toronto. Do a 3 hard, then if it fits, spin, and then modify it forwards or backwards as possible/desired.

On the other hand, the tactical positioning of moving forwards and backwards on a barrel roll was kept in place even though it was simplified. FFG could have just as easily said that barrel rolls are center ship, the end and left it there but they didn't.

Hopefully judges just make decisions on these types of rulings at the start of the event. If they don't, as a player you should ask them at the start of the event if your squad can do talon rolls.