26 minutes ago, Scott Pilgrim2 said:

For that, I am going to come up with every Han edge case I can think of and dump them at Krayt Cup "Miracle on 34th Streeet"-style.

@Brunas question for the judge:

Midnight has Han locked, and attacks him. TN341518 takes a crit and lets midnight turn a thingy into a crit. This causes TN34915 to die, letting avenger do an action. Avenger has squad leader and coordinates to Tavson, who uses hux. Hux coordinates barrel rolls. Midnight barrel rolls onto a proximity mine, rolls crit crit, loses his/her last shield and then blows up to a direct hit. Avenger then boosts wherever he wants, then autothrusers into a barrel roll. Hux is still trying to coordinate him a barrel roll in the middle of Midnight's attack, but my question is at what point during the players explaining this to you do you tell them to **** off?

2 minutes ago, player2072913 said:

@Brunas question for the judge:

Midnight has Han locked, and attacks him. TN341518 takes a crit and lets midnight turn a thingy into a crit. This causes TN34915 to die, letting avenger do an action. Avenger has squad leader and coordinates to Tavson, who uses hux. Hux coordinates barrel rolls. Midnight barrel rolls onto a proximity mine, rolls crit crit, loses his/her last shield and then blows up to a direct hit. Avenger then boosts wherever he wants, then autothrusers into a barrel roll. Hux is still trying to coordinate him a barrel roll in the middle of Midnight's attack, but my question is at what point during the players explaining this to you do you tell them to **** off?

When one of them raises their hand and says "Judge!"

1 minute ago, player2072913 said:

@Brunas question for the judge:

Midnight has Han locked, and attacks him. TN341518 takes a crit and lets midnight turn a thingy into a crit. This causes TN34915 to die, letting avenger do an action. Avenger has squad leader and coordinates to Tavson, who uses hux. Hux coordinates barrel rolls. Midnight barrel rolls onto a proximity mine, rolls crit crit, loses his/her last shield and then blows up to a direct hit. Avenger then boosts wherever he wants, then autothrusers into a barrel roll. Hux is still trying to coordinate him a barrel roll in the middle of Midnight's attack, but my question is at what point during the players explaining this to you do you tell them to **** off?

OH NO I FORGOT TO PUT OUT A CLARIFICATION FROM LAST WEEK!

tl;dr no actions from avenger mid shooting. Don't know how I forgot that, my bad!

1 hour ago, Oldpara said:

You're fundamentaly wrong in the first sentence of your satement my friend. Han's ability is not modification as dice modifications are expiclity, enumeratively listed in the Rules Reference. Please see the attachment.

I've spent enough time with actual regulatory lawyers to state that unless a list is expressly denoted as being exhaustive, it cannot conclusively be determined to be such. If the writers intended for a list to be explicitly exhaustive, they would have noted so. But then we're back to debating intent. From FFG staff, who are known to be underpaid and overworked.

But then, this would venture no longer into "rules lawyering" but border on "actual lawyering" and dealing with that is my day job, I don't really want it in my hobbies.

1 hour ago, player2072913 said:

@Brunas question for the judge:

Midnight has Han locked, and attacks him. TN341518 takes a crit and lets midnight turn a thingy into a crit. This causes TN34915 to die, letting avenger do an action. Avenger has squad leader and coordinates to Tavson, who uses hux. Hux coordinates barrel rolls. Midnight barrel rolls onto a proximity mine, rolls crit crit, loses his/her last shield and then blows up to a direct hit. Avenger then boosts wherever he wants, then autothrusers into a barrel roll. Hux is still trying to coordinate him a barrel roll in the middle of Midnight's attack, but my question is at what point during the players explaining this to you do you tell them to **** off?

Actually, I gave this the wrong response:

Only a few seconds needed.

39 minutes ago, drjkel said:

I've spent enough time with actual regulatory lawyers to state that unless a list is expressly denoted as being exhaustive, it cannot conclusively be determined to be such. If the writers intended for a list to be explicitly exhaustive, they would have noted so. But then we're back to debating intent.

If precedent matters: they make the same with failed actions. It is a not-explicitly-exhaustive list.

e: specifically: "A ship can fail when it barrel rolls, boosts, coordinates, decloaks, deploys, jams, locks, or SLAMs."

On 2/14/2019 at 10:35 AM, Brunas said:

But yeah, the problem here is largely an interface one. Also, I personally have less faith in people to correctly optimize things like lock spending over two attacks. I saw a whole lot of people take target locks when attacking with TLTs.

Right, it's really just UI. The simulation is fully general to arbitrary sequences of attacks with arbitrary modifications on both attacker and defender with maintaining or resetting tokens however you want in between each. The question is just how to expose the useful cases in a way that makes sense from a UI perspective to someone who isn't necessarily a programmer I think we've hit a decent balance with the current tools (preset/advanced calculators, "durability", how to modify, etc) but there's always room for improvement.

To some extent the purpose of making it open source was so that people could run arbitrary queries through the simulation without having to worry about the UI part. A decent amount of effort actually went into ensuring that the code interface to the simulation is simple and robust and separate from the UI part so that people could easily just grab the simulation core and run whatever they want through it. Alas it doesn't seem like anyone is using much of that (at least no one who has told me), including even the other programmers who it was targeted at. There's even some folks doing larger analyses where directly calling the sim would be ideal but instead they are doing it via manually copy-pasting results from the online tool :S Sometimes being lazy is actually a virtue in the programming world

Long story short, arbitrary sequences of attacks where the attacker sometimes maintains tokens and such are definitely possible (you may recall they were there in the 1.0 calculator from the start since gunner-effects were more common) but so far have fallen below the benefit:UI complexity threshold in 2.0.

8 hours ago, drjkel said:

I've spent enough time with actual regulatory lawyers to state that unless a list is expressly denoted as being exhaustive, it cannot conclusively be determined to be such. If the writers intended for a list to be explicitly exhaustive, they would have noted so. But then we're back to debating intent. From FFG staff, who are known to be underpaid and overworked.

But then, this would venture no longer into "rules lawyering" but border on "actual lawyering" and dealing with that is my day job, I don't really want it in my hobbies.

Well this argument sounds little bit like "I am smarter than you so let's play RAI in the way I see it".

Where I play we stick to RAW, even if we're not happy with it always.

8 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

If precedent matters: they make the same with failed actions. It is a not-explicitly-exhaustive list.

e: specifically: "A ship can fail when it barrel rolls, boosts, coordinates, decloaks, deploys, jams, locks, or SLAMs."

This is interesting. What precedent you're talking about? What in your opinion can be failed, yet is not listed here?

Actually we use this list often to check the potential outcome of the action you take. e: you cannot fail tractor action, so you choose another action if there's nothing in r1 in your arc (like 1.0 Target Lock)

29 minutes ago, Oldpara said:

This is interesting. What precedent you're talking about? What in your opinion can be failed, yet is not listed here?

Actually we use this list often to check the potential outcome of the action you take. e: you cannot fail tractor action, so you choose another action if there's nothing in r1 in your arc (like 1.0 Target Lock)

One example I have is to coordinate a stressed ship. This does not let the coordinate "fail", but it clearly fails, just not in game terms. Possibly also: Trying to reload without an ordnance that can be reloaded; trying to dock beyond range (that is not really an action? It happens during system phase).

I don't remember though what specifically gave this "huh, that's interesting" reaction.

Serious question: what about the Slave 1 title? Isn't that amazing for a ship at i5 with 3dice rear attack and rerolls?

Cards I'm kinda surprised I haven't seen abused in some way:

-Slave 1

-Lowhhrick

-Sabine crew

-Ciena Ree

-Chopper pilot

-Seventh Sister crew

-Grand Inquisitor crew

-Moralo Eval

Which of these are just bad/jank and which have been doing well, just I've not seen it?

4 hours ago, Oldpara said:

Well this argument sounds little bit like "I am smarter than you so let's play RAI in the way I see it".

Where I play we stick to RAW, even if we're not happy with it always.

My argument was that that was actually RAW, but that the rules are very badly written and can actually be read in different ways without even going to "intent."

There are two descriptive clauses that explain how dice can be modified, we can presume that the intent is for the first to be a broad one on the source of modification and the second a list of the types of modification. Neither of which is said to be exhaustive, or not.

Straight up RAW is "we don't know, but probably..."

Basically, FFG needs to step up and clear up their written rules once and for all because these debates are a waste of time when players are arguing views based on what they think it means.

Rules should be clear enough that RAI is never needed.

5 hours ago, player2072913 said:

Cards I'm kinda surprised I haven't seen abused in some way:

-Slave 1

-Lowhhrick

-Sabine crew

-Ciena Ree

-Chopper pilot

-Seventh Sister crew

-Grand Inquisitor crew

-Moralo Eval

Which of these are just bad/jank and which have been doing well, just I've not seen it?

4 minutes ago, SnooSnarry said:

Omicron Group Pilot — Lambda-class T-4a Shuttle	43
Admiral Sloane	10
Grand Inquisitor	14
 Ship Total: 67
Half Points: 34 Threshold: 5
Darth Vader — TIE Advanced x1	65
Afterburners	6
Ship Total: 71
Half Points: 36 Threshold: 3

Scimitar Squadron Pilot — TIE/sa Bomber	30
Ship Total: 30
Half Points: 15 Threshold: 3
Scimitar Squadron Pilot — TIE/sa Bomber	30
Ship Total: 30
Half Points: 15 Threshold: 3 I've been using this and it's been going wild in the extended games that I play. I get Supernatural for Vader, but a choice to make it a better ptl, or still get my action if I bump for the shuttle. I just want to pair it with Sloane because can you think of a more NPE shuttle? Speaking of Sloane, having an ace in place of 2 more filler ships has been doing great. It really makes the endgame for Sloane lists way better, which was what I felt was the biggest weakness.

That list looks pretty cool. My formula for sloane lists is now Sloane carrier + Pocket ace + as many runts as I can fit.

Although I've not really played any extended since the change so what do I know.

5 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

Serious question: what about the Slave 1 title? Isn't that amazing for a ship at i5 with 3dice rear attack and rerolls?

Short answer yes....but so is a reroll at any range through that same, I know the reroll pays a premium now but it’s probably still fairly costed enough

if bullseye reroll costs 2 points...then you widen it to a full arc and make that a rear arc on a ship with boost...sounds about right.

the main problem with slave 1 is that it’s on a medium base ship....which means there are a lot of situations where the other move just doesn’t fit or sets you up bad the next turn even if it made that turn better

then top that off with the fact that boba getting blocked is not the end of the world by any means, he is probably the least sad i5 when blocked

the only situation where I see it being really helpful is if you bring prox mines or the debris cloud and the foresight allows you to better set that up for the next turn, which is really awesome, otherwise it may not be better then just getting a reroll with the rear arc

that being said it is a good upgrade and fits easier into a squad and I think we will see it, just not convinced it is better yet

5 hours ago, player2072913 said:

Cards I'm kinda surprised I haven't seen abused in some way:

-Slave 1

-Lowhhrick

-Sabine crew

-Ciena Ree

-Chopper pilot

-Seventh Sister crew

-Grand Inquisitor crew

-Moralo Eval

Slave 1 is only valuable at high init, meaning boba. But until recently marauder+Han was ludicrously undercosted. Slave 1 is the correct answer now, but might be just a hair too expensive considering boba's cost bump. We'll see in any case as a lot of people are trying it out (e.g. I see it on vassal every day).

Lowwie is a major sleeper, if you like extended. He still pairs well with Biggs! What's the most aggressive rebel stuff that comes to 95 points? Two x wings? Torp corran? Kanan? Idk but there's probably something there.

5 hours ago, player2072913 said:

Cards I'm kinda surprised I haven't seen abused in some way:

[snip't]

Which of these are just bad/jank and which have been doing well, just I've not seen it?

• Slave 1
  • I keep thinking Debris Gambit/Maul/Slave 1 Boba Fett. Decent action economy, with decent mobility. But the issue with Slave 1 is the same as with 1e Imperial Boba: a lot of time, changing direction isn't actually good. On-paper, it's amazing. But the on-table geometry doesn't really matter too much.
  • That said, Slave 1 is wicked cheap. If you aren't investing in Marauder, seems like a massive "why not?" Maybe it gets used every other game, but makes a big difference when you do.
• Lowhhrick
  • Lowhhrick with Biggs and two Selfless generics would be sweet. Lowhh can carry Leia, maybe two VTG Y-Wings are the generics.
  • But Saw and Magva are Hyperspace, so why not just go with them?
• Sabine crew
  • Rebel Bombers aren't quite there. I could see 4x K-Wings with Barrage Rockets, Proton Bombs, and a Sabine, but probably not more than Jank
• Ciena Ree
  • I was thinking about her in a Shuttle/Defender list, but it reminds me of Juke on ships like T-65 X-Wings. Maybe it gets you where you're going in the end, but it certainly is taking the LONG way around. Like, there's a lot of cool stuff you can do with dialing in a blue, then coordinating a twist to someone, but a lot of the time, you could probably just dial in a different move. It's kinda like the Slave 1 issue. It doesn't matter as much in actual games as it seems like it might in theory.

1 hour ago, TheOz said:

the only situation where I see it being really helpful is if you bring prox mines or the debris cloud and the foresight allows you to better set that up for the next turn, which is really awesome, otherwise it may not be better then just getting a reroll with the rear arc

You would be very surprised how little difference is beetwen placing Proximity ie after 2hard left and 2hard right etc. I've checked it and outcome was very disappointing. Slave1 as a potential Proximity aligner is a mistake

(surprisingly the biggest difference is while dialing 1bank)

1 hour ago, SnooSnarry said:

Omicron Group Pilot — Lambda-class T-4a Shuttle	43
Admiral Sloane	10
Grand Inquisitor	14
 Ship Total: 67
Half Points: 34 Threshold: 5
Darth Vader — TIE Advanced x1	65
Afterburners	6
Ship Total: 71
Half Points: 36 Threshold: 3

Scimitar Squadron Pilot — TIE/sa Bomber	30
Ship Total: 30
Half Points: 15 Threshold: 3
Scimitar Squadron Pilot — TIE/sa Bomber	30
Ship Total: 30
Half Points: 15 Threshold: 3 I've been using this and it's been going wild in the extended games that I play. I get Supernatural for Vader, but a choice to make it a better ptl, or still get my action if I bump for the shuttle. I just want to pair it with Sloane because can you think of a more NPE shuttle? Speaking of Sloane, having an ace in place of 2 more filler ships has been doing great. It really makes the endgame for Sloane lists way better, which was what I felt was the biggest weakness.

I made a similar list but with soontir thrown in the mix

Game 7

(47) Lieutenant Sai
(3) Freelance Slicer
(14) Grand Inquisitor
(4) ST-321
(0) Jamming Beam
Points 68

(65) Darth Vader
(3) Hate
(6) Afterburners
(2) Fire-Control System
Points 76

(52) Soontir Fel
(2) Predator
Points 54

Total points: 198

The idea here is two I6 that both have the choice of the coordinate action from the lamda after the opponents last ship has moved, from the coordinate action sai gets a TL on whatever is thinking about shooting her(is Sai a she or a he?) when they are attacking if beneficial I can spend the lock to give them a jam.

37 minutes ago, Oldpara said:

You would be very surprised how little difference is beetwen placing Proximity ie after 2hard left and 2hard right etc. I've checked it and outcome was very disappointing. Slave1 as a potential Proximity aligner is a mistake

(surprisingly the biggest difference is while dialing 1bank)

Just the slave 1 difference is small, of course - but the real strength in slave 1 boba is moving last with boost afterwards for the guaranteed prox mines to make everything sad

I also saw a Slave 1 on Krassis with P. torps and it was actually pretty solid. 2 points for a torp slot and a useable ability seems fine.

1 hour ago, theBitterFig said:

That said, Slave 1 is wicked cheap. If you aren't investing in Marauder, seems like a massive "why not?" Maybe it gets used every other game, but makes a big difference when you do.

This exactly. What is the worst that can happen? "Oh no, I used the ability even though I shouldn't have and now it's worse!" ?? I'd rather say the worst thing is to not use it. You already get rerolls from his ability, so the value of Marauder on Boba is not as meaningful as for other pilots, hence not that much opportunity cost. And 1pt...

why not.

7 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

This exactly. What is the worst that can happen? "Oh no, I used the ability even though I shouldn't have and now it's worse!" ?? I'd rather say the worst thing is to not use it. You already get rerolls from his ability, so the value of Marauder on Boba is not as meaningful as for other pilots, hence not that much opportunity cost. And 1pt...

why not.

The flip side is that a Maul/Marauder Boba has two kinds of modification at range while boosting and kiting like Ben Franklin.

1 hour ago, Oldpara said:

You would be very surprised how little difference is beetwen placing Proximity ie after 2hard left and 2hard right etc. I've checked it and outcome was very disappointing. Slave1 as a potential Proximity aligner is a mistake

(surprisingly the biggest difference is while dialing 1bank)

Well yes I’m aware the 2 hard doesn’t make a difference as far as landing it right on someone but the other moves do make a slight enough difference or block their movement through it the next turn

but this also reinforces my point that slave one still might not be the right choice even at the discount

i almost forgot about this thread