On 2/16/2019 at 11:06 PM, Brunas said:

SHUT IT DOWN THEY KNOW

^ just because he's hilarious ^

We'll, maybe ffg should release some less-round obstacles...

More like the walls from Forbidden Stars.

Then we'd get some serious turn 0 fights and initiative bids. ....

I’m not sure how relevant my experience is, but I find that I use set openings a lot more the lower my initiative is. When I’m placing after I tend to be pretty reactive.

That being said, I’m stubbornly trying to make Boba Fett crew work, so I nearly always place one ship last.

17 minutes ago, AEIllingworth said:

I’m not sure how relevant my experience is, but I find that I use set openings a lot more the lower my initiative is. When I’m placing after I tend to be pretty reactive. 

That being said, I’m stubbornly trying to make Boba Fett crew work, so I nearly always place one ship last.

That might be the case, good point.

Though I did have two different openings for my QD/Inq/Gunboat squad back in 1.0, with Inq on the flank and QD closer with the Gunboat in the middle. Was flexible enough to do different things, but also very simple to setup and certain maneuvers fit perfectly with the way I placed rocks.

10 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

I recently-ish started to dabble in chess. One of the first things to learn are few, basic openings.

Now I'm wondering: Why is there not more material (blogposts or discussions) on that in X-wing?

I don't think it really is too variable, not when compared to the 50 or so realistic openings in chess. Most games I play end up with my opponent setting up in one of three locations (corners or middle) and me in one of the two corners. It's a very simple train of thoughts: Is the main threat/target right in front of me? Do I want to joust?
These two questions answer how to choose my opening, meaning the first 2-3 turns. I would have several in principle, but I most often default to one of 4.

So why is there not more about it? Is it secret tech that can't be shared? Or is there nothing to share because the game is not there (yet)?

Good topic. I agree that there is definitely a set of standard openings which people use in X-wing.
Even people who "improvise" are most likely just using a variation of one of the standard openings.

Would be great if someone would bother to collect and catalogize this, but I don't expect anybody to really have time to do the effort

You would need 3 things to describe the opening: Asteroid setup + Ships starting position + 2-3 Opening moves

Here are some examples of some openings which I have used or seen being used:

1. "Joust through the asteroids"
Useful if your ships are good knife fighters and like to hang out close to asteroids (such as TIE SFs).
- Asteroid setup: tight cluster in the middle
- Ships starting: the diagonally opposing corner from the opponent. If opponent deploys after you, then you'll want to start in the middle, "behind" the asteroids cluster.
- Opening moves: straight and bank moves into the asteroid field.

This opening could be also modified for Toolbox-style lists with distinct ship roles such as Tank/Knife-fighter/Ace (for example Tavson/Quickdraw/Blackout).
In this case the Tank will avoid asteroids and go through the shortest lane straight at opponent, Knife-fighter will go hang out into the middle of asteroids, and the Ace will take the long route around the asteroids.

2. "Control the center"
Useful if you're plaing a bunch of low initiative ships, preferably with turrets or wide arcs (Scurrgs, Auzitucks, etc).
- Asteroid setup: spreaded around the edges as much as possible. Ideally empty center.
- Ships starting: the corner with less obstacles nearby (you are likely to deploy first).
- Opening moves: if opponent deployed in the diagonally opposite corner, then straight and bank moves into the center of the board. If he deployed straight across you, then go happily for the joust. If he tries bait and switch then go for the center to limit his options.

3. "Three pussees"
Useful if you are playing three skinny aces and are affraid of opponent's beatdown.
And if (on top of that) the opponent deploys after you (think two ship Scum beatdown lists with high initiative and bid, like in 1.0).
- Asteroid setup: tight cluster in the middle
- Ships starting: one ship in each corner, one in the middle. The corner ships should be rotated 90 degrees facing the middle of your starting row. This way the ship in the lane which opponent has chosen for joust, can do a rapid exit.
- Opening moves: run with the ship your opponent has chosen as his target. Try and flank with the other two. Be ready to switch.

I think there could be probably like 10-15 standardized opening setups, and most others (or improvised) starts are just variations of these..

With any of my squadrons I like to prepare the default setup, and also one defensive and offensive setup (depending on the matchup).

34 minutes ago, baranidlo said:

You would need 3 things to describe the opening: Asteroid setup + Ships starting position + 2-3 Opening moves

Here are some examples of some openings which I have used or seen being used:

This is even a step further than what I had in mind. I would settle with list specific openings for the moment and see how far that gets us. What you describe here would be simply amazing if somebody really were to compile and discuss such generalized openings!

There are a lot of factors that go into a proper setup. I ask myself a series of questions.

Step One: Asteroid Placement

Is my list better or worse at maneuvering through the obstacles than my opponents? If better, I'll consider clumping them more in the middle to widen the engagement zone that the obstacles affect.

Which list wants to have lanes to move through? This is usually tied to large base ships or formation flying. If I benefit from large lanes, I'll try to line up and create columns, if my opponent benefits more I try to space them to limit straight lanes.

Step Two: Ship Placement

Do I want to joust? If so, I pick the widest lane with the most turnaround options and set up there. If I place after my opponent, I set up opposite of them.

Is running a real option (advantage on final salvo)? If so, I like to start facing along my board edge to give me maximum options for running.

Do I want to build a killbox? When I don't want to joust, I try to think of where I imagine the killbox to be and think of the series of moves to get all my ships there at the same time, maximizing straights so I can speed adjust.

Who do I want to give them the worst access to? If I have a late-game ace I'm trying to protect, I put that ace somewhere that limits my opponent's ability to get to it easily.

IMO, the ability to answer these questions correctly has a massive correlation to winning games. When I lose, I can usually pick out which of these questions I answered wrong.

Okay so i read the first page of this thread and it made me curious enough to ask - what's the current best X-wing podcast?

I'm about to go on a 2 hour drive, so I guess I'll listen to an episode each of mynocks and krayts? Any classic episodes I should get? Or has a new challenger appeared since 700 pages ago?

(As an aside guy at a store told me the krayts are "hateful" and I shouldnt listen to them because they swear too much lmao)

Rules q vis a vis krayt cup rulings. If midnight stops rebel Han pilot's ability...does Magva pilot then *upgrade* an opposing Han's ability?

Just now, Ablazoned said:

Rules q vis a vis krayt cup rulings. If midnight stops rebel Han pilot's ability...does Magva pilot then *upgrade* an opposing Han's ability?

I was talking with @Brunas, and he was leaning towards magva basically stops Han's ability, since he cannot reroll all dice.

3 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

I was talking with @Brunas, and he was leaning towards magva basically stops Han's ability, since he cannot reroll all dice.

In light of the FAQ entry saying "reroll as many as possible," I guess that's just a ruling of convenience?

4 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

I was talking with @Brunas, and he was leaning towards magva basically stops Han's ability, since he cannot reroll all dice.

Our ruling was that it doesn't count as a reroll for the purpose of other effects as per the card text, therefore, Magva can't actually effect it since it's not (technically) a reroll.

4 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

I was talking with @Brunas, and he was leaning towards magva basically stops Han's ability, since he cannot reroll all dice.

I hard disagree with that. Han's ability explicitly says it does not count as rerolling for other effects and Magva is an "other effect".

I do have an additional Han question though - where in timing chart does Han's ability kick in? In a specific example against a ship with Juke, does have reroll first and then can be juked or does juke happen first and then Han rerolls? I was pretty sure Juke happens first, but my opponent said that the "after you roll dice" part of Han means he rerolls first and then you do "attack modifies, then defender modifies".

And now I need to know how many Han Solo vs Magva Yarro match ups there are at Krayt Cup.

1 minute ago, LagJanson said:

And now I need to know how many Han Solo vs Magva Yarro match ups there are at Krayt Cup.

Besides the fact that Han is good, I sort of just want to take him to break the will of the judges there.

1 minute ago, LagJanson said:

And now I need to know how many Han Solo vs Magva Yarro match ups there are at Krayt Cup.

At least 3. Leia is good, and if you use a U Wing to carry her, the best pilots are Saw and Magva.

Just now, LagJanson said:

And now I need to know how many Han Solo vs Magva Yarro match ups there are at Krayt Cup.

I'm convinced that Magva is good, and others are convinced that Han is good...so...maybe?

5 minutes ago, Scott Pilgrim2 said:

hard disagree with that. Han's ability explicitly says it does not count as rerolling for other effects and Magva is an "other effect".

I actually take this interpretation, but go further and say that because Han's ability isn't a reroll it also isn't a "dice modification" and thus goes through Midnight...but I have 0% confidence that's RAI.

8 minutes ago, Scott Pilgrim2 said:

? I was pretty sure Juke happens first, but my opponent said that the "after you roll dice" part of Han means he rerolls first and then you do "attack modifies, then defender modifies".

Your opponent was correct.

3 minutes ago, player3010587 said:

At least 3. Leia is good, and if you use a U Wing to carry her, the best pilots are Saw and Magva. 

3 minutes ago, Ablazoned said:

I'm convinced that Magva is good, and others are convinced that Han is good...so...maybe?

I've been using Magva and Saw U-Wings since November, and everybody kept telling me they were overpriced, inefficient and otherwise the wrong call. You don't have to convince me there is value there in the right list. While I agree people will take Magva, and will take Han Solo, I'm not believing these people will meet in pairing that often.

@Tlfj200

I think you've been running a Vader/Hask/Striker/Vermeil list, right?

In Extended, I've been playing around with variants of 3 Interceptors and Vermeil. I can attest that that level of offense makes stuff really nervous and sad. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see that working in Hyperspace.

3 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

I've been using Magva and Saw U-Wings since November, and everybody kept telling me they were overpriced, inefficient and otherwise the wrong call. You don't have to convince me there is value there in the right list. While I agree people will take Magva, and will take Han Solo, I'm not believing these people will meet in pairing that often.

While I haven't played Magva/Saw, even the 45 point generic U-Wing with Leia is great.

37 minutes ago, Ablazoned said:

Your opponent was correct.

@Brunas, you should print shirts for judges at Krayt Cup with the statement above in large bold letters on the front.

...Judges job now easy.

40 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

@Tlfj200

I think you've been running a Vader/Hask/Striker/Vermeil list, right?

In Extended, I've been playing around with variants of 3 Interceptors and Vermeil. I can attest that that level of offense makes stuff really nervous and sad. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see that working in Hyperspace.

I have been.

I also am fairly confident it gets dump trucked in extended (not yor list, but mine).

Thanks, token-stack combo-wing.

My brother loves the combo of Casian with Leia and Two Tubes with baze. Super cheap and they work surprisingly well. Really good for action economy, manouverablility and stress removal.

It's the most annoying thing when he pulls a panicked pilot crit and removes 2 stress in 1 turn

It's just a shame that they are in extended only

1 hour ago, Scott Pilgrim2 said:

I hard disagree with that. Han's ability explicitly says it does not count as rerolling for other effects and Magva is an "other effect".

The problem is, Han isn't consistent with the rules of the game (I mean, all cards with text aren't, that's kind of the point). But in general, we don't know what "game effect" means. There's no combination of Han interactions on the following you can give me for these:

Locks/other reroll effects

Lando

rocks/obstacles/console fire, other random roll a die effects

C3PO

Blinded Pilot

Midnight

Magva

without invoking some serious weirdness, or being inconsistent between them. Unless you're willing to say Midnight doesn't stop Han's reroll, which I think most people agree should not be the case.

tl;dr there's an arbitrary line in the sand FFG is going to have to draw, so I took a random guess.

7 minutes ago, Brunas said:

The problem is, Han isn't consistent with the rules of the game (I mean, all cards with text aren't, that's kind of the point). But in general, we don't know what "game effect" means. There's no combination of Han interactions on the following you can give me for these:

Locks/other reroll effects

Lando

rocks/obstacles/console fire, other random roll a die effects

C3PO

Blinded Pilot

Midnight

Magva

without invoking some serious weirdness, or being inconsistent between them. Unless you're willing to say Midnight doesn't stop Han's reroll, which I think most people agree should not be the case.

tl;dr there's an arbitrary line in the sand FFG is going to have to draw, so I took a random guess.

I think the simplest thing they could do is to FAQ/Errata Han to say "After you roll your dice, if you are in range 0-1 of an obstacle you may immediately reroll all of your dice. This does not count as a modification or a reroll."

Probably not balanced, but at least it cleans up the language a bit even if "immediately" isn't a game term.