9 minutes ago, Brunas said:

actually significant in edge cases where the defender is doing something crazy with modding low numbers of green dice

TIL Whisper and Boba were edge cases!

17 minutes ago, Brunas said:

I give you (and only you) permission to errata your MS paint Wedge

UNLIMITED POWER!!!

36 minutes ago, Ablazoned said:

TIL Whisper and Boba were edge cases!

How many shots are you taking at Whisper in a game where Whisper is even included in the list? What percentage of lists include Whisper? That’s pretty well edge case, and you are being disingenuous.

Wedge is good to shoot a torpedo at i6. Wedge has some edge cases where he is also able to remove a heavily modded green die. Otherwise he is an x-wing that shoots first for 10 extra points.

12 minutes ago, AEIllingworth said:

How many shots are you taking at Whisper in a game where Whisper is even included in the list?

Of course I'm talking wave 2 meta here (but people what on wedge then too). In the krayts data set, whisper was in 26% of lists that made the cut, with boba just behind at 24%. In total 50% of cut games so kinda often???

Stripping tokens from whisper before she shot had compounding benefits such as turning off her pilot ability and/or making her choose between damage and being able to cloak. With boba the benefit was mostly straight damage but still nice.

And yeah, we've had this debate plenty.

1 hour ago, Ablazoned said:

TIL Whisper and Boba were edge cases!

Haha, I mean largely, yes? Combined, IIRC, you'd expect to see them about twice across a 7-8 set of swiss games.

31 minutes ago, Ablazoned said:

Of course I'm talking wave 2 meta here (but people what on wedge then too). In the krayts data set, whisper was in 26% of lists that made the cut, with boba just behind at 24%. In total 50% of cut games so kinda often???

Stripping tokens from whisper before she shot had compounding benefits such as turning off her pilot ability and/or making her choose between damage and being able to cloak. With boba the benefit was mostly straight damage but still nice.

And yeah, we've had this debate plenty.

Like you note, post cut is a little different. It's the problem with teching hard against "the good stuff" - most people don't play the good stuff, and you have to work your way through hard matchups early, to hit the matchups you have tech for later.

5 hours ago, Tlfj200 said:

I mean, the answer is while they made the promise, the didn’t promise they all drop at the same time - that was projected by the community.

Yeah. I mean, or it could be included with the next Legion expansion. We just can't know, and it's not reasonable to make inferences, because they were very careful not to promise.

4 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

Yeah. I mean, or it could be included with the next Legion expansion. We just can't know, and it's not reasonable to make inferences, because they were very careful not to promise.

I largely agree with the point you're making, but I don't have a good solution to the problem.

For example, 000 and BT1 for a new scum player. The options they've had to re-release them are in the scum falcon, which would have been the best option, but those cards were presumably decided a long time ago before they decided the decimator would include 000/BT-1. I'm just guessing that they picked the decimator for wave 4 after wave 2 was in development, which means their options for getting them into scum were:

Wave 2: Mining Guild TIE (no crew or gunner slots)

Wave 3: Z-95 (no crew or gunner slots)

Wave 4: nothing, right?

I think it would be equally or maybe even more annoying to have to buy a z95 or whatever for you gunner/crew for your falcon, so I don't really know what their solution is. I don't know when/where they promised they'd make you not have to buy out of a single faction to know what was promised, but it's pretty clear the community read it as you'd always be able to stay current with one faction. Maybe card packs are their best option?

10 minutes ago, Brunas said:

It's the problem with teching hard against "the good stuff" - most people don't play the good stuff, and you have to work your way through hard matchups early, to hit the matchups you have tech for later.

Right now, I am actually working build lists for the field. I think that by teching against top stuff (like dropping predator for crack in the Squad of Legend) makes my squad weaker in the field where my teching doesn't matter. While I am at the point where I am *barely* making a decent amount of cuts with a consistent 4-2 record, in 90% of my losses I lose in the game and not the listbuilding phase. Focusing on my play instead of figuring out the teching is going to have bigger dividends for me.

3 minutes ago, Brunas said:

I largely agree with the point you're making, but I don't have a good solution to the problem.

For example, 000 and BT1 for a new scum player. The options they've had to re-release them are in the scum falcon, which would have been the best option, but those cards were presumably decided a long time ago before they decided the decimator would include 000/BT-1. I'm just guessing that they picked the decimator for wave 4 after wave 2 was in development, which means their options for getting them into scum were:

Wave 2: Mining Guild TIE (no crew or gunner slots)

Wave 3: Z-95 (no crew or gunner slots)

Wave 4: nothing, right?

I think it would be equally or maybe even more annoying to have to buy a z95 or whatever for you gunner/crew for your falcon, so I don't really know what their solution is. I don't know when/where they promised they'd make you not have to buy out of a single faction to know what was promised, but it's pretty clear the community read it as you'd always be able to stay current with one faction. Maybe card packs are their best option?

Card packs would be ideal, since they could be produced on much shorter notice as well. No models to be designed means no injection mold needs to be made, etc.

Also, as a note on what was said on the podcast- A finely detailed steel injection mold for plastic (one needs to be made for each sculpt) can run 6 figures, easily.

21 minutes ago, Brunas said:

Haha, I mean largely, yes? Combined, IIRC, you'd expect to see them about twice across a 7-8 set of swiss games.

A non-negligible advantage in 25-50% of matchups?...sign me up!

Also, and i can't prove this, but I suspect that there's a strong interaction term between good players and good lists. If I thought back then that whisper and boba were the best pieces, I'd assume that other good players saw that too. That means that I'm more likely to face good players flying whisper and less good players flying something else than I am to face the obverse. If my goal (in a system open which is sorta the only hope someone of my middling ability has to get a worlds invite), mov means nothing, so getting small advantages all the time is better than big advantages more rarely.

Of course none of this matters now after the points change and anything could be good.

1 hour ago, Ablazoned said:

A non-negligible advantage in 25-50% of matchups?...sign me up!

Also, and i can't prove this, but I suspect that there's a strong interaction term between good players and good lists. If I thought back then that whisper and boba were the best pieces, I'd assume that other good players saw that too. That means that I'm more likely to face good players flying whisper and less good players flying something else than I am to face the obverse. If my goal (in a system open which is sorta the only hope someone of my middling ability has to get a worlds invite), mov means nothing, so getting small advantages all the time is better than big advantages more rarely.

Of course none of this matters now after the points change and anything could be good.

Yep, but I'll hit you with the converse: Why not just bring Boba or Whisper and have an advantage in the alternate 50-75% of your matchups? :p

Also, I'd like to note how sad that statement is about only chance for a worlds invite - not anything you've done/said, but that's the reality for these events. A lot of people will be playing stuff they don't like, for a chance to go to a tournament. feelsbadman.

But yeah largely I agree, and even if it's not relevant now the decision making going into picking previous lists is still useful, since it's always similar decisions being made in most metas.

Awww, I'm late for the "Post the ugliest star wars ships you can find" party.

16 minutes ago, Brunas said:

Also, I'd like to note how sad that statement is about only chance for a worlds invite - not anything you've done/said, but that's the reality for these events. A lot of people will be playing stuff they don't like, for a chance to go to a tournament. feelsbadman.

well, also for templates and the sense of pride and accomplishment. But I was definitely always a quad phantom player.

12 minutes ago, Brunas said:

A lot of people will be playing stuff they don't like, for (any given reason, usually for alternate art versions of game components we already own). feelsbadman.

This statement (adjusted) is the crux of my struggle with competitive X-Wing. Which is also weird because that's the lens through which I've viewed the game for going on a year now. But, yeah, I just cannot bring myself to play a list I don't enjoy, no matter what the level/reward. That's not to say I haven't played clearly broken and good stuff and really enjoyed it, because sometimes that stuff can intersect.

I also appreciate clever list building which may not be necessarily fun to fly, but when they first pop up and people are like, "Oh ****"...that's pretty cool for those list architects. I mean, we hated Ghost/Fenn, but I think that was pretty clever and Rebels-show thematic as ****.

It's also the crux of why I'm occasionally at war with the Krayts, because I actively want to prove them wrong on topics such as this, which usually ends up with "Do what you want, man" and early tournament exits.

29 minutes ago, Brunas said:

Yep, but I'll hit you with the converse: Why not just bring Boba or Whisper and have an advantage in the alternate 50-75% of your matchups? 😛

So this is something I've put a lot more thought into than wedge. The first answer is that I feel dirty bringing stuff like ghost/Fenn. Second, in my experience, I've only ever had anything like decent tournament results when I go anti-meta. That's sort of because what I mentioned before.

Imagine each opponent has two traits- skill either good/bad and list either meta/not. That leaves four groups. I assume I'm worse than good players and better than bad players. If a meta is predictable, and I can design a not garbage squad with a better than average matchup against meta lists, I can gain a hopefully meaningful advantage on b/m players, close a little bit of the gap against g/m players, and hope my skill and preparation can help me navigate the b/n players in Swiss. By contrast, of I fly meta, I make myself vulnerable to other anti-meta while folding to better players in the (likely in cuts which is my goal) mirror. TL;DR the only way I'm going to have a chance at high-level performance is flying anti-meta.

39 minutes ago, Brunas said:

Also, I'd like to note how sad that statement is about only chance for a worlds invite - not anything you've done/said, but that's the reality for these events. A lot of people will be playing stuff they don't like, for a chance to go to a tournament. feelsbadman.

To me, it seems like that's pretty easy to say if you already have an invite and/or good performances behind you. I'm still hungry.

16 minutes ago, Ablazoned said:

I assume I'm worse than good players and better than bad players.

I think the first part is a perspective thing a lot of people can work on. I've only seen/played a handful of people play who I felt really "saw the matrix". Most if the time, "good, named" players are just going to tournaments regularly, playing meta lists which they've practiced, know matchups, etc. Basically, they brought the best stuff and did their work to play it well.

44 minutes ago, Ablazoned said:

To me, it seems like that's pretty easy to say if you already have an invite and/or good performances behind you. I'm still hungry.

If it makes you feel better, I was always a nihilist. Now I just look like a jerk saying worlds isn't a huge deal and you should enjoy the events you're at, with worlds being a potential perk.

31 minutes ago, gennataos said:

I think the first part is a perspective thing a lot of people can work on. I've only seen/played a handful of people play who I felt really "saw the matrix". Most if the time, "good, named" players are just going to tournaments regularly, playing meta lists which they've practiced, know matchups, etc. Basically, they brought the best stuff and did their work to play it well.

That.

"Good" players are mortal. You'll be fine.

The game would be better if people went in with the pure intent to have fun, win or lose. Or maybe that's just my very low tolerance to salt speaking.

19 minutes ago, Brunas said:

If it makes you feel better, I was always a nihilist. Now I just look like a jerk saying worlds isn't a huge deal and you should enjoy the events you're at, with worlds being a potential perk.

So you're saying you got a worlds invite not even caring?!!? 😂🤣😭 /s

3 hours ago, Brunas said:

Maybe card packs are their best option?

I think so. I don't know the production logistics, but would a "Components Pack" every two months make sense? (Gas Clouds! Spare Parts Canisters! Upgrade cards!)

Just now, Jeff Wilder said:

I think so. I don't know the production logistics, but would a "Components Pack" every two months make sense? (Gas Clouds! Spare Parts Canisters! Upgrade cards!)

I'd be in. I'm still missing my debris clouds from when all my obstacles got stolen with my tokens, so I full understand the new player problem in trying to source all the obstacles...

Just a "here's all the not faction restricted cards that are new this wave" card pack would be very hard for people to complain about. Also probably a logistics nightmare, but that's not my problem.

What happens every couple of months and people that actually care are probably already doing? Store kits

They should just put things like gas clouds and cross faction cards that aren't in an in faction ship yet as alt arts in the store kits. Problem solved

6 minutes ago, Makaze said:

What happens every couple of months and people that actually care are probably already doing? Store kits

They should just put things like gas clouds and cross faction cards that aren't in an in faction ship yet as alt arts in the store kits. Problem solved

Honestly, this sounds like the best idea. I would be even more encouraged to go to a kit event and FFG is still getting paid for it.

27 minutes ago, Makaze said:

What happens every couple of months and people that actually care are probably already doing? Store kits

They should just put things like gas clouds and cross faction cards that aren't in an in faction ship yet as alt arts in the store kits. Problem solved

They tend to make the useful stuff like range rulers and tokens only available to the top players. The end result under the current system would be Dee Yun using gas clouds and 0-0-0 cards as shield tokens.

2 hours ago, Dismal Scientist said:

They tend to make the useful stuff like range rulers and tokens only available to the top players. The end result under the current system would be Dee Yun using gas clouds and 0-0-0 cards as shield tokens.

At least around here the base alt arts tend to come in such numbers that they're spewed around pretty evenly and all the stores give out piles of them during later tourneys. But yeah thinking that for this to work you'd need enough in the kit to make sure everyone gets at least one gas cloud. Even if they're the same shape could make them alt art, like blue or green, so people who buy the prequel boxes don't feel left out. Would be fine to skip range rulers for several kits to maintain cost (I mean I'd be super fine cause those orange things are hideous, but also fine in a general sense as range rulers are a bit saturated by now)