34 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:by the way, is it just my perception or is the forum unusually quiet and calm since points dropped? It's like there is nothing to complain about, and thus nobody has anything to talk about.
I just want Triple upsilons "solved" without losing to the field. You're trying, @GreenDragoon, I see you trying, and I appreciate it. I've started trying with XXAA an XXA. Pretty sure I lose L'ulo first round every time.
34 minutes ago, gennataos said:Pretty sure I lose L'ulo first round every time.
Assuming you don't want to just run with lulo (and thereby throw Nien to the wolves), you should be able to get lulo in only one of their arcs with a focus, though you may have to red boost to achieve it. Still, 4fl only kills 2f like 0.3% of the time barring crits.
Edited by Ablazoned16 minutes ago, gennataos said:I just want Triple upsilons "solved" without losing to the field. You're trying, @GreenDragoon, I see you trying, and I appreciate it. I've started trying with XXAA an XXA. Pretty sure I lose L'ulo first round every time.
Han + Biggs may actually be a decent solution.
10 minutes ago, Ablazoned said:Assuming you don't want to just run with lulo (and therebybthriw Nien to the wolves), you should be able to get lulo in only one of their arcs with a focus, though you may have to red boost to achieve it. Still, 4fl only kills 2f like 0.3% of the time barring crits.
Maybe. To achieve that loses flexibility in setup. For XXAA, I've been setting up L'ulo and Tallie on opposite corners, all the way back, at 45 degree angles. Poe is on Tallie's side, range 2 from her all the way forward, 45 degrees pointed in, Bastian the same thing on L'ulo's side. This allows both T-70s and an A-Wing to engage, no matter what, if I choose to. I don't think both shuttles can get a LOCK either A-Wing, even with an angled deployment. Maybe if they're RIGHT next to each other, but that'll hose them for future turns. The problem is, neither A-Wing can reliably end up out of both shuttle arcs.
I could point them along the board edge, in which case they have a decent chance to dodge one of the arcs, depending on opposing setup and maneuvers. OR, I could just point them forward and try to blast past. But, all of that feels like a gamble. The safest bet might be just to resign an A-Wing to death and ensure I push through as much damage as possible early to help with the damage climb as the game progresses.
Not sure if any of what I've said makes sense.
X X
A A
13 minutes ago, Scott Pilgrim2 said:Han + Biggs may actually be a decent solution.
What does that do against the field, though? I could just do Han/Poe, too, but don't like how it looks against the field, either. I'm trying to go down the same path as @GreenDragoon, and find solutions via strategy/tactics and maybe some list tech tweaks, rather than wholesale list changes (for now).
If it's helpful (and anyone else is bored enough to go down this track with me), this is my current list:
Poe Dameron (68)
Heroic (1)
R4 Astromech (2)
Integrated S-Foils (0)
Black One (2)
Hardpoint: Cannon (0)
Heavy Laser Cannon (4)
L’ulo L’ampar (38)
Heroic (1)
Tallissan Lintra (35)
Lieutenant Bastian (48)
Integrated S-Foils (0)
Total: 199
1 hour ago, RStan said:Yeah I'd mostly attribute to this. No big events have happened to give us an early snapshot of a developing meta for people to either comment or complain about in a knee jerking manner. There's just a small list of things that went mostly untouched so they're assumed to stay at top tiers (Quad Phantoms, Trip Upsilon, & Sloane) and it's everyone basically building lists again to see what could work.
Speculation time! Being wrong is fun.
Hyperspace Archetypes:
Early days but the obvious un-insightful biggest changes to the Hyperspace Puzzle are...
Im really curious to see how much Super Luke & Super Kylo impact the Hyperspace meta. First thing I am testing seriously.
They both definitely still fit with a bid if you drop Ordinance. Less bid if you dont.
Edited by Boom Owl27 minutes ago, Scott Pilgrim2 said:Han + Biggs may actually be a decent solution.
Biggs is the ultimate solution to all Rebel problems.
Also... one of those moments that I'm grateful to have Magva in a list. Seems to reduce the probability of four perfect hits from those shuttles, based on the calculator. Downside is, well, dice don't always roll the average, do they?
31 minutes ago, gennataos said:I just want Triple upsilons "solved" without losing to the field. You're trying, @GreenDragoon, I see you trying, and I appreciate it. I've started trying with XXAA an XXA. Pretty sure I lose L'ulo first round every time.
My motivation is part selfish and part more ulterior selfishness. As you said in the other thread, everyone should have an idea on how to play against it, and I want to see what other people come up with.
But the other reason for me to try and "spread awareness" is that IMO people are lashing out much more afterwards if they went into the game with too much confidence and then get tabled. To my understanding, Tripsilon partially works on tilting the opponent, on gaining an advantage by completely overwhelming something on the very first turn, with a surprisingly frustrating following 70min of fighting against the clock. Knowing about the list, how the list works, and maybe most importantly that the obvious first idea of staying in the back and simply "evading the arcs" does NOT work is very important.
False confidence is embarrassing, and embarrassment leads to stronger whining, more complaints, and in return a worse forum.
5 minutes ago, gennataos said:If it's helpful (and anyone else is bored enough to go down this track with me), this is my current list:
If I were to try: Let them have Lulo or Bastian, but sell it hard that you don't want that. Poe can use his black one to get out, Tallie can 3bank+1bank to get past them and will survive a shot from Dormitz. Lulo can try too, but has a harder time due to the stress. He should still survive, and maybe you can get Dormitz into Tallie's bullseye to improve the odds. Bastian... Yeah, sorry. At best you can bump him in a way that prevents a shot, but that is rather difficult or unlikely even. If you can get the bump, you can maybe draw Dormitz' shot to Bastian too, which would be ideal.
I would practice on how wide you have to set them up to allow you slipping through, how you can identify which side/maneuver is better. Also note where you can't have asteroids. You can force that a bit by placing one near enough to prevent that placement.
13 minutes ago, gennataos said:What does that do against the field, though? I could just do Han/Poe, too, but don't like how it looks against the field, either. I'm trying to go down the same path as @GreenDragoon, and find solutions via strategy/tactics and maybe some list tech tweaks, rather than wholesale list changes (for now).
If it's helpful (and anyone else is bored enough to go down this track with me), this is my current list:
Poe Dameron (68)
Heroic (1)
R4 Astromech (2)
Integrated S-Foils (0)
Black One (2)
Hardpoint: Cannon (0)
Heavy Laser Cannon (4)L’ulo L’ampar (38)
Heroic (1)Tallissan Lintra (35)
Lieutenant Bastian (48)
Integrated S-Foils (0)Total: 199
So Rebel Han can nearly solo an entire list once he starts flanking - I generally feel good about him actually winning a lot of games, what I am unsure of is if he can do it in 75 minutes. The missing piece is a strong alpha strike which I am trying to figure out.
23 minutes ago, gennataos said:What does that do against the field, though? I could just do Han/Poe, too, but don't like how it looks against the field, either. I'm trying to go down the same path as @GreenDragoon, and find solutions via strategy/tactics and maybe some list tech tweaks, rather than wholesale list changes (for now).
If it's helpful (and anyone else is bored enough to go down this track with me), this is my current list:
Poe Dameron (68)
Heroic (1)
R4 Astromech (2)
Integrated S-Foils (0)
Black One (2)
Hardpoint: Cannon (0)
Heavy Laser Cannon (4)L’ulo L’ampar (38)
Heroic (1)Tallissan Lintra (35)
Lieutenant Bastian (48)
Integrated S-Foils (0)Total: 199
Huh...I didn't think of that XXAA. I feel like that's better than the all i5 version. Although have you tried dropping the HLC on Poe and put trick shot on Lulo and Talli? Is a lighter Poe to fit Bastian better than Poe 3As? Too different to compare?
I know it isn’t rational, but I’m one of the people that tries to go hunting. I’m looking hard at boba crew to give me a much easier tripselon matchup and just practicing as much as I can against everything else. If we find something that works really well against upsilons, even if it is pretty rare, I think people herd away from it.
Other fun options include Teroch and a bunch of i3+, try to ps kill them right back.
Edited by AEIllingworth10 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:My motivation is part selfish and part more ulterior selfishness. As you said in the other thread, everyone should have an idea on how to play against it, and I want to see what other people come up with.
But the other reason for me to try and "spread awareness" is that IMO people are lashing out much more afterwards if they went into the game with too much confidence and then get tabled. To my understanding, Tripsilon partially works on tilting the opponent, on gaining an advantage by completely overwhelming something on the very first turn, with a surprisingly frustrating following 70min of fighting against the clock. Knowing about the list, how the list works, and maybe most importantly that the obvious first idea of staying in the back and simply "evading the arcs" does NOT work is very important.
False confidence is embarrassing, and embarrassment leads to stronger whining, more complaints, and in return a worse forum.
I understand being skeptical, I'm skeptical a lot until I try/face something myself. I just don't have patience for skepticism which is also bundled with apathy. I honestly don't care about someone's opinion on a topic like this if they show they aren't looking at the game through the same competitive lens.
13 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:If I were to try: Let them have Lulo or Bastian, but sell it hard that you don't want that. Poe can use his black one to get out, Tallie can 3bank+1bank to get past them and will survive a shot from Dormitz. Lulo can try too, but has a harder time due to the stress. He should still survive, and maybe you can get Dormitz into Tallie's bullseye to improve the odds. Bastian... Yeah, sorry. At best you can bump him in a way that prevents a shot, but that is rather difficult or unlikely even. If you can get the bump, you can maybe draw Dormitz' shot to Bastian too, which would be ideal.
I would practice on how wide you have to set them up to allow you slipping through, how you can identify which side/maneuver is better. Also note where you can't have asteroids. You can force that a bit by placing one near enough to prevent that placement.
Giving up L'ulo seems like the correct choice. If they go after Bastian, awesome, but I wouldn't expect a cut player to do that. Asteroid placement feels pretty key to burn down the collision detector charges as early as possible. Thanks!
4 minutes ago, RStan said:Huh...I didn't think of that XXAA. I feel like that's better than the all i5 version. Although have you tried dropping the HLC on Poe and put trick shot on Lulo and Talli? Is a lighter Poe to fit Bastian better than Poe 3As? Too different to compare?
I started on Poe + 3 A's and it lacked the punch/meat I wanted/needed. There wasn't enough there to take heat off Poe, which resulted in him having no/bad shots while dodging around. Bastian has been doing a good job of providing that. Poe can peace out when he has to with Bastian there to bring a little more hammer. Plus, he's a pretty good blocker. When I saw Morgan ran a similar version in the Aces league a few times, it gave me even more confidence I was on the right track.
I've gotten pretty decent at guessing/lining up HLC without reposition, but I'm open to the idea of dropping it. I want see where the new meta lands, first, though. I haven't the foggiest where bids will be, if I'll care to have it, etc.
Some other archetypes that could end between game breaking strong and just viable:
I FORGOT TO PUT JAMMING BEAM ON BASTIAN ON THE SQUAD SHEET, BUT I STILL BROUGHT IT!
27 minutes ago, RStan said:Huh...I didn't think of that XXAA. I feel like that's better than the all i5 version. Although have you tried dropping the HLC on Poe and put trick shot on Lulo and Talli? Is a lighter Poe to fit Bastian better than Poe 3As? Too different to compare?
Variations on that resistance list is my current "best in hyperspace" vote for the faction - but man, what is it with resistance players and being addicted to upgrades?
2 minutes ago, Brunas said:Variations on that resistance list is my current "best in hyperspace" vote for the faction - but man, what is it with resistance players and being addicted to upgrades?
Is most of your resistance data from PHX and NZ Nats showing a larger amount of upgrades per list/ship?
2 minutes ago, Brunas said:Variations on that resistance list is my current "best in hyperspace" vote for the faction - but man, what is it with resistance players and being addicted to upgrades?
JAMMING BEAM IS FREE!
Like what?
1 minute ago, RStan said:Is most of your resistance data from PHX and NZ Nats showing a larger amount of upgrades per list/ship?
Just now, gennataos said:JAMMING BEAM IS FREE!
Like what?
I mean, even this one:
Poe Dameron (68)
Heroic (1)
R4 Astromech (2)
Integrated S-Foils (0)
Black One (2)
Hardpoint: Cannon (0)
Heavy Laser Cannon (4)
L’ulo L’ampar (38)
Heroic (1)
Tallissan Lintra (35)
Lieutenant Bastian (48)
Integrated S-Foils (0)
Total: 199
stop putting heroic on things! I promise you'd rather move after all the 0-3 point bids and just run this:
Poe Dameron (68)
R4 Astromech (2)
Integrated S-Foils (0)
Black One (2)
Hardpoint: Cannon (0)
Heavy Laser Cannon (4)
L’ulo L’ampar (38)
Tallissan Lintra (35)
Lieutenant Bastian (48)
Integrated S-Foils (0)
Total: 197
Even then, the HLC might not be worth it. Basically what I mean is, Resistance has some of the best aces in the game, but it's a bunch of rebel players that don't know how good double reposition moving last is, so they aren't bidding against each other...
16 minutes ago, gennataos said:Giving up L'ulo seems like the correct choice. If they go after Bastian, awesome, but I wouldn't expect a cut player to do that. Asteroid placement feels pretty key to burn down the collision detector charges as early as possible. Thanks!
The maneuver I'd look out for for Lulo: If there is a 5 straight that either bumps (which is fine) or, if it didn't, allows you to boost past the arcs. Of course that's the ideal case, but as far as I understand, a 5s bumps the fast upsilon moves. As alternative you could sell that you want to try to get away sideways with Lulo. If he bites: great, more space for the rest. If he doesn't, Lulo actually gets away, which is also great.
But this going back to delusional headsim territory, so you'd do best to actually test that.
So, triple upsilons:
I think the general trick is to sell out anything to get a decent piece behind it - even if it means jousting.
For example: we've been finding tie swarm beats triple ups consistently. You usually trade howlrunner for an upsilon (sometimes it hangs on at 1 hull).
Turn 1: exchange.
turn 2: parking lot and howl trades for upsilon (or puts it to 1 hull).
Turn 3 - still mostly parking lot, but some TIEs can start 4k-ing over the ups. You may lose a TIE to a random 5-die, unmodded shot, but we typically get 3 TIEs over the "hump" and then they're just behind the ups, winning.
After seeing this, I suspect there are several lists that can recreate this effect (and not be entirely warped to 'just' being anti-ups):
Old T plus stuff (scum han/boba + 3rd; probably other variations).
Rebel Han +1 (or 2, do what you want man).
Most resistance lists (yep, you lost a piece on the initial engage, and it SUPER feelsbadman, but you probably just have an easy time shooting from behind the turn after).
7 minutes ago, Brunas said:I mean, even this one:
Poe Dameron (68)
Heroic (1)
R4 Astromech (2)
Integrated S-Foils (0)
Black One (2)
Hardpoint: Cannon (0)
Heavy Laser Cannon (4)L’ulo L’ampar (38)
Heroic (1)Tallissan Lintra (35)
Lieutenant Bastian (48)
Integrated S-Foils (0)Total: 199
stop putting heroic on things! I promise you'd rather move after all the 0-3 point bids and just run this:
Poe Dameron (68)
R4 Astromech (2)
Integrated S-Foils (0)
Black One (2)
Hardpoint: Cannon (0)
Heavy Laser Cannon (4)L’ulo L’ampar (38)
Tallissan Lintra (35)
Lieutenant Bastian (48)
Integrated S-Foils (0)Total: 197
Even then, the HLC might not be worth it. Basically what I mean is, Resistance has some of the best aces in the game, but it's a bunch of rebel players that don't know how good double reposition moving last is, so they aren't bidding against each other...
Because yelling "HEROIC" every time it triggers is fun?
No, that's a valid argument. I have this one as it is because I don't know where bids are going to land yet and I'm seeing if I can just get by without it. I've been fully prepared for removal of Heroic and/or HLC, but, yeah...I can be reasoned with. That would make me care a lot less about getting a plastic Heroic at the Extended (BLEH) Wave Championship tomorrow.
Don't know about moving last....psssh. Those bids started here in St. Louis!
31 minutes ago, AEIllingworth said:I know it isn’t rational, but I’m one of the people that tries to go hunting. I’m looking hard at boba crew to give me a much easier tripselon matchup and just practicing as much as I can against everything else. If we find something that works really well against upsilons, even if it is pretty rare, I think people herd away from it.
Other fun options include Teroch and a bunch of i3+, try to ps kill them right back.
So Dormitz doesn't have a range restriction (i.e. cannot place friendly ships at range 0-3 of enemies), so would boba crew really be a counter? There's nothing to stop the upsilons from parking in front of the ship carrying Boba, and could even get Dormitz's gun on target as well.
Unless you're thinking of boba crew on Han with a bid, or on Moralo, who just 4 straights off the board and appears behind them. Though you don't even need boba for the moralo trick.
EDIT. and even if you did have him on Han with a bid, they can easily cover all possible deployments to force you to deploy normally.
Edited by pyoinator2 minutes ago, pyoinator said:So Dormitz doesn't have a range restriction (i.e. cannot place friendly ships at range 0-3 of enemies), so would boba crew really be a counter? There's nothing to stop the upsilons from parking in front of the ship carrying Boba, and could even get Dormitz's gun on target as well.
Unless you're thinking of boba crew on Han with a bid, or on Moralo, who just 4 straights off the board and appears behind them. Though you don't even need boba for the moralo trick.
EDIT. and even if you did have him on Han with a bid, they can easily cover all possible deployments to force you to deploy normally.
Boba crew sets up after everything else, so it's basically the hardest UUU counter out there. Just means no boba pilot, which sucks for other reasons!
2 minutes ago, Brunas said:Boba crew sets up after everything else, so it's basically the hardest UUU counter out there. Just means no boba pilot, which sucks for other reasons!
Oh yeah you're completely right! But my other point still stands, can't the upsilons just place in such a way that covers all obstacles, thus forcing him to deploy at their board edge. Then they just go an delete one of the other ships?
14 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:I suspect there are several lists that can recreate this effect
Im liking more and more Fenn/OldT/Zealous/Craft.