13 minutes ago, Brunas said:

best way to get things fixed is to get the community to break it so hard something has to be done immediately...

^

The next Dash/Rorak must be found and played as much as possible.

My biggest fear is that they will reduce cost on a ton of stuff that we are just to dumb to have used in meaningful amounts.

Or stuff thats perfectly fine and just unused because people are smart enough to use obviously outlier things ( Redline/Whisper/Boba ).

Seems safer early on to revise a few things up than alot of unknown things down. Not you Wedge.

3 minutes ago, Brunas said:

All that being said, I come from video games, where whatever the game rules are is literally unchangeable so the best way to get things fixed is to get the community to break it so hard something has to be done immediately...

I played online text-based multiplier games last century (interactive multiplayer spreadsheets!) and did my share of market simulation way back in my bachelors. Figuring out how the scoring systems worked and how to optimize for more points was the best way to win at those. Certainly not the intended way, and probably not the one that made people the happiest though (being told we're not allowed to buy the other teams' companies in our market simulation final because they failed to optimize the scoring model like we did was disappointing.).

But that's not a "fun game." That's breaking the game and trying to have fun while doing it to highlight how deeply broken the system is. The fun isn't coming from the game. And many devs do not respond to players breaking games, or do not respond well.

The fact that X-wing has a broken point system (which they can now more easily address, in theory) combined with a broken rules system (the language used is way too far from airtight) is a massive issue when some people will aim to break the underlying system to win. Which breeds resentment and salt at the perceived unfairness. In the end, for many it feels like a job that is only rewarding when you pull off your goal of winning. Those burnt out players are not fun to play against as they're not there to enjoy it for what it is. A game of pew-pewing.

Then again, I just bought a cheap 2nd Upsilon because that looks like the most ridiculous way to break the game right now. That, and the impressive wingspan!

1 hour ago, viedit said:

Hard to price that appropriately. Look at the Punisher for example. Generic cutlass is i2 and 36 points. Deathrain is i4 and 44. For just two points over Deathrain you get the hyperstupid Redline at i5 for 44 points.

For just two points over Deathrain, Redline will straight up murder it. How do you square that? When 2 or 3 points can basically tell a lesser ship it no longer gets to play, you are beyond points adjustment and into core mechanics territory.

Some stuff is always going to have good or bad matchups against other stuff. I don't think you can, or even necessarily want to do away with that. 2.0s prime sin seems to be that high Initiative has all the advantages, but this might be solvable by the right points premium. Eventually you hit a point where high Initiative cannot effectively just point at people and shoot, which might not solve every problem, but it probably solves the biggest problem.

Uuupsilon is an interesting squad solely in that it causes X-wing "'experts'" to come out of the woodwork to talk about how they 'know how to deal with the squad'.

(They did not know how to deal with it)

It's the perfect squad to illustrate that there are a large amount of loud voices that are a lot less smart than they think.

16 minutes ago, drjkel said:

I played online text-based multiplier games last century (interactive multiplayer spreadsheets!) and did my share of market simulation way back in my bachelors. Figuring out how the scoring systems worked and how to optimize for more points was the best way to win at those. Certainly not the intended way, and probably not the one that made people the happiest though (being told we're not allowed to buy the other teams' companies in our market simulation final because they failed to optimize the scoring model like we did was disappointing.).

But that's not a "fun game." That's breaking the game and trying to have fun while doing it to highlight how deeply broken the system is. The fun isn't coming from the game. And many devs do not respond to players breaking games, or do not respond well.

The fact that X-wing has a broken point system (which they can now more easily address, in theory) combined with a broken rules system (the language used is way too far from airtight) is a massive issue when some people will aim to break the underlying system to win. Which breeds resentment and salt at the perceived unfairness. In the end, for many it feels like a job that is only rewarding when you pull off your goal of winning. Those burnt out players are not fun to play against as they're not there to enjoy it for what it is. A game of pew-pewing.

Then again, I just bought a cheap 2nd Upsilon because that looks like the most ridiculous way to break the game right now. That, and the impressive wingspan!

Your wings are very impressive

You must be very proud

And... kind of? If the game isn't very broken, or there's simple language to cover edge cases, I think things are mostly fine. For example, the anti fortressing rules aren't very effective from keeping someone from making some crazy rube goldberg machine to fortress. That being said, they're pretty good at letting a judge look at your stupid fortressing machine and telling you no.

6 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

Some stuff is always going to have good or bad matchups against other stuff. I don't think you can, or even necessarily want to do away with that. 2.0s prime sin seems to be that high Initiative has all the advantages, but this might be solvable by the right points premium. Eventually you hit a point where high Initiative cannot effectively just point at people and shoot, which might not solve every problem, but it probably solves the biggest problem.

That threshold is where low-init squads without words come out ahead consistently vs high init ace squads. Force them to actually try to outmaneuver ****, not just "fly straight at them and kill them with words".

1 minute ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

That threshold is where low-init squads without words come out ahead consistently vs high init ace squads. Force them to actually try to outmaneuver ****, not just "fly straight at them and kill them with words".

I have very scientifically* developed a relationship that I think is a good way to determine if an efficiency squad is good vs triple aces:

"If efficiency minus 1 ship favorably jousts against triple aces, then it is a good efficiency squad."

It's just a starting point.

*not very scientifically

4 minutes ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

without words

When you say without words, I take it you include ship abilities. Do you also include actions there?

2 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

When you say without words, I take it you include ship abilities. Do you also include actions there?

Minimal unique word combinations*

15 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

2.0s prime sin seems to be that high Initiative has all the advantages, but this might be solvable by the right points premium. Eventually you hit a point where high Initiative cannot effectively just point at people and shoot, which might not solve every problem, but it probably solves the biggest problem.

This. The problem of just losing a ship or getting arc dodged gets lessened as you get more ships to lose or arcs for them to dodge (which is effectively implemented by pricing aces up).

28 minutes ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

Uuupsilon is an interesting squad solely in that it causes X-wing "'experts'" to come out of the woodwork to talk about how they 'know how to deal with the squad'.

(They did not know how to deal with it)

It's the perfect squad to illustrate that there are a large amount of loud voices that are a lot less smart than they think.

I ain't an expert in the least, but the solutions that I have found almost guaranteed to work against it are: A: Repo shenanigans such as AS, SNR, and decloak, B: "Joust Better" lists such as damage spread and multiple double modded torpedoes per turn, and C : Hate Kanan (albeit, that is more meme than list, but if your local meta is all Upsilon, then I guess it works!).

BONUS FUN FACT: Ask any person from Greece or a proper Greek scholar to show them how incorrect your Erasmian pronunciation of Greek is. (Having been humiliated, I spread such useless knowledge by referring to the shuttles as "Eepsehlon" shuttles, like the Greek letter's pronounciation). You may finally be able to pick up some Monty Python jokes along the way! (For example, the Knights-Who-Say-Ni! are actually saying the greek letter "V" (pronounced "Knee"). When Sir Bedivere joins King Arthur in fulfilling the threat of saying "Ni!" later on, he pronounces the letter as "New", like a Nu squad gunboat. Because this is the Erasmian pronunciation of the letter and not how a Greek would pronounce it, Arthur has to correct him with the proper "Ni". But of course, there is a back and forth of the two pronunciations of the letter.

8 minutes ago, player3010587 said:

I ain't an expert in the least, but the solutions that I have found almost guaranteed to work against it are: A: Repo shenanigans such as AS, SNR, and decloak, B: "Joust Better" lists such as damage spread and multiple double modded torpedoes per turn, and C : Hate Kanan (albeit, that is more meme than list, but if your local meta is all Upsilon, then I guess it works!).

BONUS FUN FACT: Ask any person from Greece or a proper Greek scholar to show them how incorrect your Erasmian pronunciation of Greek is. (Having been humiliated, I spread such useless knowledge by referring to the shuttles as "Eepsehlon" shuttles, like the Greek letter's pronounciation). You may finally be able to pick up some Monty Python jokes along the way! (For example, the Knights-Who-Say-Ni! are actually saying the greek letter "V" (pronounced "Knee"). When Sir Bedivere joins King Arthur in fulfilling the threat of saying "Ni!" later on, he pronounces the letter as "New", like a Nu squad gunboat. Because this is the Erasmian pronunciation of the letter and not how a Greek would pronounce it, Arthur has to correct him with the proper "Ni". But of course, there is a back and forth of the two pronunciations of the letter.

How many times have you played vs Uuupsilon? What is your win rate with each of these archetypes vs it?

53 minutes ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

Uuupsilon is an interesting squad solely in that it causes X-wing "'experts'" to come out of the woodwork to talk about how they 'know how to deal with the squad'.

(They did not know how to deal with it)

It's the perfect squad to illustrate that there are a large amount of loud voices that are a lot less smart than they think.

Huh.

57 minutes ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

Uuupsilon is an interesting squad solely in that it causes X-wing "'experts'" to come out of the woodwork to talk about how they 'know how to deal with the squad'.

(They did not know how to deal with it)

It's the perfect squad to illustrate that there are a large amount of loud voices that are a lot less smart than they think.

Makes me curious how many of these were among those saying the ship was "DOA" when its stats and dial were revealed...

1 hour ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

Uuupsilon is an interesting squad solely in that it causes X-wing "'experts'" to come out of the woodwork to talk about how they 'know how to deal with the squad'.

(They did not know how to deal with it)

It's the perfect squad to illustrate that there are a large amount of loud voices that are a lot less smart than they think.

How do you deal with it?

1 minute ago, GreenDragoon said:

How do you deal with it?

I personally prefer the table flip

I would like to see more use of progressive (exponenatial? whatever it is the proper name) costs of upgrade, things like ordnance could cost more depending on ps

1 minute ago, LagJanson said:

I personally prefer the table flip

I was pretty active in the reddit thread discussing it. Had a good sim&discussion with a guy who brought it to outryder and told me where I was wrong.

Eg there is no safe strip, you can't outrun along your edge, rocks are (initially) pointless, and a slanted setup makes trying to evade impossible.

But I also got a much better idea on how to handle it, where to place obstacles and so on. I didn't get the opportunity to play it, but I won't waste the first few attempts with ideas that can't work.

So I'm curious, maybe he has something to say.

14 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

How do you deal with it?

Depends heavily on the squad. Some squads can't seriously expect to actually win against non-terrible players.

The secrets are

- you can't even get half on one with a 3 torp alpha, don't yolo it.

- They go oddly fast.

1 minute ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

Depends heavily on the squad. Some squads can't seriously expect to actually win against non-terrible players.

This was what I was expecting.

But you didn’t actually answer how to deal with it.

29 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Makes me curious how many of these were among those saying the ship was "DOA" when its stats and dial were revealed...

I mean, it's only good due to the fact that Dormitz is there to allow that forced awkward engage and that the only lists that could actually outjoust it are effecitively myths in this meta.

If you take out him from the list, the "get behind them" suggestion becomes actually something feasible.

Just now, LagJanson said:

This was what I was expecting.

But you didn’t actually answer how to deal with it.

I mean, it does depend on the squad. It involves deploying in some way so that the Front Group is chasing something while another half of your list chews away.

That being said, if you have **** like 3 Named Y's with torps, you kinda just auto-lose.

I haven't lost with my Uuupsilon, but so i'm mostly just saying I see a lot of confidence going into engages quickly disappear. I don't have a perfect answer, i just know what makes it uncomfortable and what the list laughs at.

2 minutes ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

I haven't lost with my Uuupsilon, but so i'm mostly just saying I see a lot of confidence going into engages quickly disappear. I don't have a perfect answer, i just know what makes it uncomfortable and what the list laughs at.

I haven’t played with or against but I don’t like what I see really. Confidence seems misplaced when you see three “shuttles” in front of you

Just now, LagJanson said:

I haven’t played with or against but I don’t like what I see really. Confidence seems misplaced when you see three “shuttles” in front of you

"Just get behind them" is not a real strategy. Mr. Dormitz has ensured that they will press that issue. People see Shuttle and assume it's a joke list, or they see Shuttle and assume they can run from it.

But more in that it's easier to reject a theory than to accept one. I don't know the cure for cancer. I do know you can't cure cancer by eating pizza.

Feels like one of those games where you want stuff thats fast enough to not play the game at all from start to finish.

Less about "just get behind them" and more about how the **** to avoid getting shot at all in the initial engage? Figure out the rest later.

Or at least have 1 thing your comfortable sacrificing and start running to time with whatevers left in your list fairly early on. Not sure theres alot that can do this.

Not sure what to kill first either but pretty sure its not Tavson...

Their 3 speeds are fast enough that running early on is much easier said then done.