3 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

Except hyperspace is fun and easier to balance (more limited ships).

2 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

But 2.0 is already better than 1.0? And Hyperspace is - yet again - bit better?

It is naive to expect the perfect game. But it is realistic and accurate that 2.0 and hyperspace made it better.

I'd say that even if you don't love Extended compared to Hyperspace, it's hard to argue Extended as-is is not way better than 1.0, with a chance to get even better as points get balanced.

1 hour ago, Biophysical said:

3.) I like Hyperspace better, but I'll still prepare competitively for System Opens.

This. I'll just wish I was preparing for a Hyperspace tournament most of the time.

One thing I genuinely believe though is that Extended with all of its flaws is still a massive improvement on 1.0.

The game is already just better.

Redline/Whisper or Boba/Jumpers are not boring to play against.

Basically 75% of the 1.0 meta was an uninteresting AOE Bubble or a variation on Kylo running to time with or without Regen (Poe, Timewalk, even my Vader played to time as their win condition).

Extended's % of boring games is significantly lower. Its absolutely a better game.

5 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

This. I'll just wish I was preparing for a Hyperspace tournament most of the time.

One thing I genuinely believe though is that Extended with all of its flaws is still a massive improvement on 1.0.

The game is already just better.

Redline/Whisper or Boba/Jumpers are not boring to play against.

Basically 75% of the 1.0 meta was an uninteresting AOE Bubble or a variation on Kylo running to time with or without Regen (Poe & Timewalk played to time as their win condition).

Extended's % of boring games is significantly lower. Its a better game.

At least the strongest lists in 2.0 are small base ships that use their primary firing arc to do damage, and don't mitigate damage amazingly.

My problem is that the ships that are good right now are a (Choose 1 or more, possibly both) from

- Be Initiative 5+

- have an incredibly powerful ability

The mynock podcast discussion has people saying 'i3 pilots are fine, they have Biggs and Palob and Sabine', glazing over the fact that ships like the Black Squadron Scout, Black Squadron Ace, Omega Squadron Pilot, etc, are wildly overcosted/useless.

13 minutes ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

At least the strongest lists in 2.0 are small base ships that use their primary firing arc to do damage, and don't mitigate damage amazingly.

My problem is that the ships that are good right now are a (Choose 1 or more, possibly both) from

- Be Initiative 5+

- have an incredibly powerful ability

 The mynock podcast discussion has people saying 'i3 pilots are fine, they have Biggs and Palob and Sabine', glazing over the fact that ships like the Black Squadron Scout, Black Squadron Ace, Omega Squadron Pilot, etc, are wildly overcosted/useless.

Definitely there are issues. But they are incremental issues. Mostly solvable to.

FFG removed a layer of AOE, Bomb, and Hyper Defense that was clouding our vision in 1.0

Now the player base is mostly free of all that nonsense and can complain about things like Init Kills, Bids, Words vs Pictures, Pre-Movement reposition.

2.0 worked because FFG moved the conversation about the game forward, or backwards depending on point of view.

17 minutes ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

The mynock podcast discussion has people saying 'i3 pilots are fine, they have Biggs and Palob and Sabine', glazing over the fact that ships like the Black Squadron Scout, Black Squadron Ace, Omega Squadron Pilot, etc, are wildly overcosted/useless.

I've definitely noticed people raise "there are viable I3/4 pilots" as a counterargument to "I5/6 pilots are overpowered", which means the two viewpoints are talking past each other, but I don't really know how to phrase the argument better (without making it comically long and specific)

13 minutes ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

My problem is that the ships that are good right now are a (Choose 1 or more, possibly both) from

- Be Initiative 5+

- have an incredibly powerful ability

The mynock podcast discussion has people saying 'i3 pilots are fine, they have Biggs and Palob and Sabine', glazing over the fact that ships like the Black Squadron Scout, Black Squadron Ace, Omega Squadron Pilot, etc, are wildly overcosted/useless. 

I think there are 2 points:

1. The difference between these I5+ ships with strong ability and the I3-4 (or other ships) is not as large as we are used to from 1.0. Back then it meant the rest was unplayable. Currently it means its weaker and has more burden of execution. But the game is not simply over. I've seen it this Saturday, for example, when Palob took out Whisper, then finished Redline, and finally died to Soontir. That game went back and forth. The two are among the top local players, and the imperial player has been our nr1 for over 600 days now, you've very likely seen him on international streams too. Just to say, he knows a bit what he's doing. And yet the game got quite close after a very one sided start. That's just an anecdote, but the difference to 1.0 is staggering.

2. Just because there are plenty good I3 ships does obviously not mean that there aren't the horrible ones. But there are so many I3 that are doing well - comparably - to the rest. And that is now even clearer with Resistance and FO. All the Upsilons are 4 or below. Backdraft is 4. The FO Ties are. Bastian, Jess, Chewie, all Bombers. I honestly don't see how the problem is identified as I3/I4 (when there are so many counter examples!) and instead as those individual ships being overcosted.

1 minute ago, GreenDragoon said:

I think there are 2 points:

1. The difference between these I5+ ships with strong ability and the I3-4 (or other ships) is not as large as we are used to from 1.0. Back then it meant the rest was unplayable. Currently it means its weaker and has more burden of execution. But the game is not simply over. I've seen it this Saturday, for example, when Palob took out Whisper, then finished Redline, and finally died to Soontir. That game went back and forth. The two are among the top local players, and the imperial player has been our nr1 for over 600 days now, you've very likely seen him on international streams too. Just to say, he knows a bit what he's doing. And yet the game got quite close after a very one sided start. That's just an anecdote, but the difference to 1.0 is staggering.

2. Just because there are plenty good I3 ships does obviously not mean that there aren't the horrible ones. But there are so many I3 that are doing well - comparably - to the rest. And that is now even clearer with Resistance and FO. All the Upsilons are 4 or below. Backdraft is 4. The FO Ties are. Bastian, Jess, Chewie, all Bombers. I honestly don't see how the problem is identified as I3/I4 (when there are so many counter examples!) and instead as those individual ships being overcosted.

i'm quoting i3/4 ***generics*** as being useless in this meta.

The game is once more defined by who has the better words on their card.

Just now, Kaptin Krunch said:

i'm quoting i3/4 ***generics*** as being useless in this meta.

The game is once more defined by who has the better words on their card.

Generic RZ2 A-wings aside (because they are awesome!), that is an important clarification.

The question from Ryan was: "What needs to happen to make initiative 3-4 ships more playable? Why aren’t they now? Can anything be done?"

Nothing about generics there, so obviously the answers will focus on counter examples where I3-4 ships are playable, and very much so. Which demonstrates that I3-4 is not inherently the problem, and that ships can and do work at that initiative.

2 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Generic RZ2 A-wings aside (because they are awesome!), that is an important clarification.

The question from Ryan was: "What needs to happen to make initiative 3-4 ships more playable? Why aren’t they now? Can anything be done?"

Nothing about generics there, so obviously the answers will focus on counter examples where I3-4 ships are playable, and very much so. Which demonstrates that I3-4 is not inherently the problem, and that ships can and do work at that initiative.

Those that do succeed utilize WORDS to do so.

The enemy is WORDS

make every pilot with WORDS go up 1 point per WORD

50 minutes ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

Those that do succeed utilize WORDS to do so.

The enemy is WORDS

make every pilot with WORDS go up 1 point per WORD

if conditions count, then poor captain rex is now 97 points

Speaking of Words...How are people building their B17s?

So far I think I have settled on two "core" builds. Both of the below builds have been effective for me ( sometimes including Rose or C3P0 and dropping Paige ).

AND

Options to add/remove from core based on list:

• Paige - Feels almost auto-include. Creates mostly Unavoidable Bubbles at various critical points in the game if people get to close from bad angles.
• Rose - Gives the B17s shades of Tavson but it Acquires a Lock/ Works while stressed. Fully modified 3/2 dice shots are good.
• C3P0 - Turns it into a Coordinate Support boat which is amazing for the opening alpha strike or adjusting approaches with coordinated boosts/rolls.
• Han Solo - Eventually the B17s are at Range 1 of stuff. Evades are good.
• Skilled Bombardier - When you don't have it and need it you feel dumb.
• Rey Gunner - 14 pts of goodness
• Modification - Hull/Shield ( The base 3 shields go away quick )
• Extended - Add Ablative

Wing Mates ( Drop to Cobalt if necessary ).

• 3 A-Wings
• Lulo/Talli both with Optics Prockets
• Poe/Nien + 1 A-Wing/Pava/Bastian
• Nien + Ello
• Just Poe?

If you had to choose between Paige, Rose, C3P0, Han, Rey Gunner or freeing up points what would you pick?

What else are people doing with these things?

1 hour ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

Those that do succeed utilize WORDS to do so.

The enemy is WORDS

make every pilot with WORDS go up 1 point per WORD

That is yet another clarification. By now we're down to "generics without a chassis ability at I3-4 are crap". The Scimitars don't believe you (their bomb dropping ability might as well be blank), but that and the Z95s in Drea's swarm are the only examples by now.

Ships without words are also less fun though. I agree that they are worse.

54 minutes ago, svelok said:

if conditions count, then poor captain rex is now 97 points

A sacrifice I am willing to make.

26 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

That is yet another clarification. By now we're down to "generics without a chassis ability at I3-4 are crap". The Scimitars don't believe you (their bomb dropping ability might as well be blank), but that and the Z95s in Drea's swarm are the only examples by now.

Ships without words are also less fun though. I agree that they are worse.

Scimitars aren't good, Barrage Rockets and proton Torps are good.

Drea Swarms live and die by their Quadjumpers, the ship with the most words in the ship ability, and the one that got 2 brackets cheaper (it was in the "You can have 5 in a list" bracket in 1.0 and was mediocre, now it's in the "You can have 7 in a list" bracket in 2.0, and overpowered.

3 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

Definitely there are issues. But they are incremental issues. Mostly solvable to.

FFG removed a layer of AOE, Bomb, and Hyper Defense that was clouding our vision in 1.0

Now the player base is mostly free of all that nonsense and can complain about things like Init Kills, Bids, Words vs Pictures, Pre-Movement reposition.

2.0 worked because FFG moved the conversation about the game forward, or backwards depending on point of view.

Just having the points be flexible is huuuuuge IMO. Been working through some hyperspace rebel squads and there are a few squads that look fun and good that ALMOST fit. Being able to reprice things is a great way to balance. For example, naked Kylo is probably a bit too expense, but SNR really ups his power level. Now they can maybe lower his price while raising SNR so that 1) the combo stays expense and 2) encourages other Kylo builds.

1 hour ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

Scimitars aren't good, Barrage Rockets and proton Torps are good.

Not sure I fully agree with this. The Bomber is a great ship at that price. I ran Brockets on Lt Kestal and they did not feel undercosted

The other Imperial Brocket platform, Deathrain, has his own issues...

Personally only suffered against Brocket launchers through my own incompetence.

I'm not totally convinced that ProTorps are too good either. Double modded ProTorps certainly are. There's too many ways to get them there though, so ProTorps probably need to take the hit as a result.

I guess I'm saying they're both fine if you put them on a crap ship and hip fire them

9 hours ago, Biophysical said:

So, it's popular on this thread to talk about how Extended isn't worth thinking too much about because it's assumed to be less commonly played and you don't like the balance aspects of it.

What about System Opens?

In actuality, is it more:

1.) I don't care what happens in System Opens, it's not real X-wing. I won't be playing.

2.) I sorta care about System Opens, but I don't like it. I'll play a Hyperpsace list or I'll play an Extended List but not practice.

3.) I like Hyperspace better, but I'll still prepare competitively for System Opens.

Of course there are people that don't care or like Extended better, but this isn't about them.

If I were able to play in a system open, I'd be in #3. One thing that I like about Hyperspace is that it is just easier to wrap my head around, or at least provides a more focus for ship choices and upgrade cards.

Random post to say thanks to the mods for putting up with our nonsense.

Thanks for putting up with our nonsense. Happy Sunday.

10 hours ago, Biophysical said:

3.) I like Hyperspace better, but I'll still prepare competitively for System Opens.

^ That one ^

Hoping the points adjustments makes extended more tolerable and hyperspace better.

2 minutes ago, RStan said:

^ That one ^

Hoping the points adjustments makes extended more tolerable and hyperspace better.

41 minutes ago, AlexW said:

If I were able to play in a system open, I'd be in #3. One thing that I like about Hyperspace is that it is just easier to wrap my head around, or at least provides a more focus for ship choices and upgrade cards.

Me too. I like Hyperspace better, but I still enjoy the game at the core and unless FFG makes the game into "Play this one specific squad or be wrong", I'll like it in Extended, Hyperspace, and the other Variants. If the points shake up happens as much as I suspect, we may find ourselves in a constant "we sort of think we know what the meta is" state. I can think of exactly one squad that is probably solved (Whisper/Redline/Soontir) and that still doesn't just dominate everything else. If you can identify the power cards in a vacuum, then you are probably better prepared for the points adjustments because then you can see what cards are undercosted.

So A-Wings with rear arcs?

Does it make them more fun or less fun?

After alot more games with them I think the rear arc some how takes away from some of there charm.

Its great to be able to 3 bank or 5 forward boost past something and Range 1 Rear Arc them. Definitely makes them considerably easier. But it doesnt feel particularly A-Wingy.

つ ◕◕ ༽つ SUMMON REBEL A-WING WITH ADVANCED OPTICS  ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ

Just now, Boom Owl said:

So A-Wings with rear arcs?

Does it make them more fun or less fun?

After alot more games with them I think the rear arc some how takes away from some of there charm.

Its great to be able to 3 bank or 5 forward boost past something and Range 1 Rear Arc them. But it doesnt feel particularly A-Wingy.

つ ◕◕ ༽つ SUMMON REBEL A-WING WITH ADVANCED OPTICS  ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ

It definitely makes them more fun, mostly because they feel ‘worth’ their points because of their ‘up time ‘.

also, they’re crazy maneuverable, which is fun.

It makes them more fun - probably a bit more annoying to play against. Green Squadron Expert with Trick/Crack/Optics is the best 40 points in the game IMO besides barrage TIE bombers.. Same is true even without Optics at 36.

2 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

It definitely makes them more fun, mostly because they feel ‘worth’ their points because of their ‘up time ‘.

also, they’re crazy maneuverable, which is fun.

Yea the very fact that they are playable makes them more fun by definition.

But what would it take to make a good A-Wing that only shoots forward?

Primary Weapons Guidance Chips?

Just now, Boom Owl said:

Yea the very fact that they are playable makes them more fun by definition.

But what would it take to make a good A-Wing that only shoots forward?

Primary Weapons Guidance Chips?

Tie fighter-level points, or new pilots.