31 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Then it might be just me who misunderstands what is meant by synergy, but I think that term is somewhat misleading.

Much of the synergy is of defensive nature. I'll have a look at how much, but I think it would be fair do make it explicit if it turns out to be a large part.

syn·er·gy

noun

The interaction or cooperation of two or more organizations, substances, or other agents to produce a combined effect greater than the sum of their separate effects.

That's the textbook definition of synergy. When it comes to the archetypes of "Syngery", "Combowing", "Acewing" ect...the rebel "thing" is synergy by definition. It's just the explicit use of that synergy is *mostly* for damage mitigation/control. Dutch, Jan, Saw,ect being exceptions.

This was more interesting than I expected.

12 Pilots/Upgrades with offensive or defensive synergy:

• Garven Dreis: give spent focus to friendly ship at range 1-3
• Esege Tuketu: friendly ship at range 0-2 can spend your focus for attack or defense
• Kyle Katarn: give focus to friendly ship in your arc
• Roark Garnet: give a I7 to friendly ship in your arc [arguably, that's mainly an offensive bonus]
• Lando Calrissian: one extra action for a friendly ship at range 0-3
• Jake Farrell: give focus to friendly ship at range 0-1
• AP-5: Coordinate stressed ships
• Benthic Two-tubes: give a focus to a friendly ship at range 1-2
• Cassian Andor: remove a stress from a friendly ship at range 1-3
• Airen Cracken: free red action for a friendly ship at range 1
• Leia Organa: reduce difficulty of red maneuvers for 1 turn
• Kanan Jarrus (crew): remove a stress after white maneuver for friendly ship at range 0-2

6 (8 or 9 with Roark) Pilots/Upgrades with offensive synergy:

• Dutch Vander: give TL to friendly ship at range 1-3
• Gavin Darklighter: a friendly ship may turn a hit into a crit
• Jan Ors: give an additional red die to friendly ship in your arc
• Bodhi Rook: friendly ships can acquire TL at range 0-3 of any other friendly ship
• Saw Gerrera: free reroll of a red die for a friendly ship at range 0-3
• Not actually counting because they only benefit themselves:
  • Horton Salm: reroll red dice for friendly ship at range 0-1
  • Lt Blount: reroll 1 red die for friendly ship at range 0-1 of target

8 (9) Pilots/Upgrades with defensive synergy:

• Lowhhrick: give evade to friendly ship at range 0-1
• Evaan Verlaine: spend a focus to give an additional green die for a friendly ship at range 0-1
• Fenn Rau: enemy ship can't modify attack dice
• Biggs Darklighter: suffer 1 hit or crit instead of friendly ship at range 0-1
• Captain Rex: suppressive fire, enemy has -1 red die if attacking another friendly ship
• Magva Yarro: attacker can't reroll more than 1 die against friendly ship at range 0-2
• Kanan Jarrus: enemy has -1 red die while attacking a friendly ship in your arc
• Selfless: suffer 1 crit instead of friendly ship at range 0-1
• Kinda?
  • Jyn Erso: turns a mixed use focus into a defensive evade for friendly ship at range 0-3

33 non-generic Pilots with neither:

• 3 ARCs, 2 B-wings, 4 Attackshuttles, 1 Auzituck, 1 Y-wing, 1 K-wing, 1 E-wing, 2 YT-1300, 1 A-wing, 2 Sheathipedes, 7 X-wings, 3 TIE fighters, 1 U-wing, 2 VCX100, 2 YT2400

So in conclusion: defense is slightly more, but it is very well balanced. I did not expect it to be that close.

Edit: A quick glance at imperials only shows 3/3/3. The neutral ones are Vizier (does that count?), Sai and Valen Rudor. The offensive ones are Jendon, Howlrunner and Jonus. The defensive ones are Kagi, Iden and Del Meeko. Perfectly balanced as all great things.

Edit 2: and for Scum: 2/3/2: Neutral: Kaato Leachos, Manaroo. Offense: Drea, Escape craft ORP, Yushyn. Defense: Serissu, Xizor.

Only pilots were considered for imperial and scum, but that is already a yuuuge difference. Rebels have almost 50% (26/59) pilots with snyergies. Imperial has 9 and scum 8. Even though Vizier might be a stretch...

18 minutes ago, viedit said:

syn·er·gy

noun

The interaction or cooperation of two or more organizations, substances, or other agents to produce a combined effect greater than the sum of their separate effects.

That's the textbook definition of synergy. When it comes to the archetypes of "Syngery", "Combowing", "Acewing" ect...the rebel "thing" is synergy by definition. It's just the explicit use of that synergy is *mostly* for damage mitigation/control. Dutch, Jan, Saw,ect being exceptions.

Thanks, I get that much. My point was that if defensive synergy was dominating, then that would be noteworthy enough to state explicitly, to be more precise because synergy is too inclusive of other types of synergy besides defensive options.

However, going through all the synergies of rebels shows that "synergy" is perfectly fitting because it is an almost perfect balance of offensive, defensive, and both/neutral (focus, action economy, stress removal, initiative boost).

25 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Jan Ors (crew): turns a mixed use focus into a defensive evade for friendly ship at range 0-3

Jyn Erso... We call her Jyn Erso now...

25 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Thanks, I get that much. My point was that if defensive synergy was dominating, then that would be noteworthy enough to state explicitly, to be more precise because synergy is too inclusive of other types of synergy besides defensive options.

However, going through all the synergies of rebels shows that "synergy" is perfectly fitting because it is an almost perfect balance of offensive, defensive, and both/neutral (focus, action economy, stress removal, initiative boost).

Yup, and excellent digging on the specifics. It is very balanced, however the defense side seems to be the "better" side of it outside of Dutch for the most part.

2 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

Jyn Erso... We call her Jyn Erso now...

Haha, thanks. I fixed it.

I also didn't look at titles. For example, Empire has the ST-321 which is clearly offensive synergy. Same for Ruthless: trade 1 damage on a friendly into better offensive output. I would also count Krennic as offensive synergy. Sloane, Ciena Ree and Moff Jerjerod are neutral, with Sloane arguably being defensive in nature if at all? Are there more empire-specific upgrades.

Scum are all a bunch of egoists. No synergy crew except the mindlinked Droid. Maybe Vizago if you count illicit trading?

I also forgot gunners, but there isn't a synergetic one that's faction locked for the big three.

10 minutes ago, viedit said:

Yup, and excellent digging on the specifics. It is very balanced, however the defense side seems to be the "better" side of it outside of Dutch for the most part.

I expect that's because Offensive Synergy just makes it easier to do stuff that you can already do. It makes it easier to get max hits, for example, but it's not that rare to get max hits without synergy. The Rebel Defensive Synergy goes above and beyond maximizing normal defense, stuff like Biggs and Selfless is above and beyond the dice.

https://us1.campaign-archive.com/?u=2f77d2f8c77398c0b064223ba&id=95d2b5265b

Top right banner pic. Paparazzi never let System Open Champions have privacy.

24 minutes ago, gennataos said:

https://us1.campaign-archive.com/?u=2f77d2f8c77398c0b064223ba&id=95d2b5265b

Top right banner pic. Paparazzi never let System Open Champions have privacy.

JOSH JOSH JOSH

1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

12 Pilots/Upgrades with offensive or defensive synergy:

6 (8 or 9 with Roark) Pilots/Upgrades with offensive synergy:

8 (9) Pilots/Upgrades with defensive synergy:

Note saying you're wrong, but your definition of synergy is more liberal than mine. Most of what you've listed here I'd call "economy". I wouldn't call it synergy until there were multiple effects working together for an result that is somehow greater than the sum, e.g. Garven + Esege.

3 minutes ago, prauxim said:

Note saying you're wrong, but your definition of synergy is more liberal than mine. Most of what you've listed here I'd call "economy". I wouldn't call it synergy until there were multiple effects working together for an result that is somehow greater than the sum, e.g. Garven + Esege.

One thing I did in 1.0 and 2.0 was to collect all upgrades and abilities that improve action economy, where a single action gives more than 1 in return. But I don't think that's necessarily synergy. You are right, here I just took every ability that gives a friendly ship something. It does not have to be net benefit and can be zero sum game, because that can be important. Damage shuffling is an example where it is very obvious. Maybe it's also the only one where that is true?

I don't know.

Maybe that is a good and important difference between the two (offensive and defensive). It seems like defensive abilities improve action economy, while the offensive ones have a net zero sum. With the exception of Jan and Dutch, the only two being actually played. Well, also Saw. Bodhi is 0, and Gavin is pointless... While defensive abilities have great economy: 6 improve it. Yes, I think Kanan counts. 3 don't (Low, Verlaine, Jyn).

I ended up drawing the short straw and now I have to play resistence in an extended team tournament (which will also happen with current points if FFG doesn't publish the **** update before the 21st ffs) and I need inspiration and suggestions for what to play.

I don't like a-wing because I hate throwing just 2 red dice and relay on luck to survive, I have tried Rey Poe but although it wasn't as bad as I expected, it's also pretty far from being able to play with most meta lists.

Other than a-wing shenanigans, have you guys found something good in the resistence? They have some nice crew like Rose and C3po, but I feel they lack the ships to make proper use of their good stuff.

halp pls right now I have way less time than I used to to test stuff

Just now, Sunitsa said:

I ended up drawing the short straw and now I have to play resistence in an extended team tournament (which will also happen with current points if FFG doesn't publish the **** update before the 21st ffs) and I need inspiration and suggestions for what to play.

I don't like a-wing because I hate throwing just 2 red dice and relay on luck to survive, I have tried Rey Poe but although it wasn't as bad as I expected, it's also pretty far from being able to play with most meta lists.

Other than a-wing shenanigans, have you guys found something good in the resistence? They have some nice crew like Rose and C3po, but I feel they lack the ships to make proper use of their good stuff.

halp pls right now I have way less time than I used to to test stuff

This thing hits like a truck with double modded attacks, has too much health to alpha off, and draws agro from your fighters.

Cobalt Squadron Bomber — MG-100 StarFortress	63
C-3PO (Resistance)	6
Veteran Turret Gunner	8
Paige Tico	7
Ship Total: 84
Half Points: 42 Threshold: 6

Just now, impspy said:

This thing hits like a truck with double modded attacks, has too much health to alpha off, and draws agro from your fighters.

Cobalt Squadron Bomber — MG-100 StarFortress	63
C-3PO (Resistance)	6
Veteran Turret Gunner	8
Paige Tico	7
Ship Total: 84
Half Points: 42 Threshold: 6

4 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

I ended up drawing the short straw and now I have to play resistence in an extended team tournament (which will also happen with current points if FFG doesn't publish the **** update before the 21st ffs) and I need inspiration and suggestions for what to play.

I don't like a-wing because I hate throwing just 2 red dice and relay on luck to survive, I have tried Rey Poe but although it wasn't as bad as I expected, it's also pretty far from being able to play with most meta lists.

Other than a-wing shenanigans, have you guys found something good in the resistence? They have some nice crew like Rose and C3po, but I feel they lack the ships to make proper use of their good stuff.

halp pls right now I have way less time than I used to to test stuff

whoops - that was supposed to tag you. ^^

EDIT: Flavor to taste, but keep PA on nien, and Black 1/r4 on Poe. I also highly recommend keeping torps, because there's not a good reason to not torp things into oblivion right now.

Seconding @Tlfj200 - I was going to recommend those three pilots myself (without upgrades since I'm less knowledgeable about optimizing upgrades.)

Lulo isn't an A-Wing. Lulo is an X-Wing with a better dial.

2 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

Seconding @Tlfj200 - I was going to recommend those three pilots myself (without upgrades since I'm less knowledgeable about optimizing upgrades.)

Lulo isn't an A-Wing. Lulo is an X-Wing with a better dial.

That, and if they turn in and shoot Lulo, and not either nien or poe, you're perfectly happy with that exchange. And if they ignore Lulo, at least he's throwing 3 dice.

19 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

Squad of Legend Redux (192)

Poe Dameron — T-70 X-Wing	68
Trick Shot	1
R4 Astromech	2
Integrated S-Foils	0
Black One	2
Hardpoint: Torpedo	0
Proton Torpedoes	9
Ship Total: 82
Half Points: 41 Threshold: 4
Nien Nunb — T-70 X-Wing	55
Heroic	1
Integrated S-Foils	0
Pattern Analyzer	5
Hardpoint: Torpedo	0
Proton Torpedoes	9
Ship Total: 70
Half Points: 35 Threshold: 4
L'ulo L'ampar — RZ-2 A-Wing	38
Heroic	1
Trick Shot	1
Ship Total: 40
Half Points: 20 Threshold: 2

That is Squad of Canon

If you're dead set against the A-Wings (L'ulo is kind of amazing, though), Bastian is an option as well. This first one is more of a shenanigans/"git gud with bullseye" list I'm working with, the second one is probably more traditional and certainly easier to use. Neither has a bid, so if that's important to you, you should probably stick with L'ulo.

Poe Dameron (68)
Heroic (1)
R4 Astromech (2)
Integrated S-Foils (0)
Black One (2)
Hardpoint: Cannon (0)
Heavy Laser Cannon (4)

Nien Nunb (55)
Daredevil (3)
Integrated S-Foils (0)
Pattern Analyzer (5)
Hardpoint: Cannon (0)
Heavy Laser Cannon (4)

Lieutenant Bastian (48)
M9-G8 (7)
Integrated S-Foils (0)

Total: 199

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

Poe Dameron (68)
Heroic (1)
R4 Astromech (2)
Integrated S-Foils (0)
Black One (2)
Hardpoint: Torpedo (0)
Proton Torpedoes (9)

Nien Nunb (55)
Heroic (1)
Integrated S-Foils (0)
Pattern Analyzer (5)
Hardpoint: Torpedo (0)
Proton Torpedoes (9)

Lieutenant Bastian (48)
Integrated S-Foils (0)

Total: 200

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

I hope ffg x wing articles come in teams of 3 and we get our points update today.

41 minutes ago, impspy said:

This thing hits like a truck with double modded attacks, has too much health to alpha off, and draws agro from your fighters.

Cobalt Squadron Bomber — MG-100 StarFortress	63
C-3PO (Resistance)	6
Veteran Turret Gunner	8
Paige Tico	7
Ship Total: 84
Half Points: 42 Threshold: 6

This seems interesting, but a bit expansive. I will consider it thought, probably cutting Paige

40 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

Squad of Legend Redux (192)

Poe Dameron — T-70 X-Wing	68
Trick Shot	1
R4 Astromech	2
Integrated S-Foils	0
Black One	2
Hardpoint: Torpedo	0
Proton Torpedoes	9
Ship Total: 82
Half Points: 41 Threshold: 4
Nien Nunb — T-70 X-Wing	55
Heroic	1
Integrated S-Foils	0
Pattern Analyzer	5
Hardpoint: Torpedo	0
Proton Torpedoes	9
Ship Total: 70
Half Points: 35 Threshold: 4
L'ulo L'ampar — RZ-2 A-Wing	38
Heroic	1
Trick Shot	1
Ship Total: 40
Half Points: 20 Threshold: 2

This is like a worse version of the wedge luke sabine...

Considering that resistence so far seems just to be worse rebels, it's not that bad thought, if you are forced to play resistence in extended

30 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

@Tlfj200

Lulo isn't an A-Wing. Lulo is an X-Wing with a better dial.

Yeah Lulo doesn't classify as a ship throwing 2 reds and relaying on luck on defense

1 minute ago, Sunitsa said:

This is like a worse version of the wedge luke sabine...

Considering that resistence so far seems just to be worse rebels, it's not that bad thought, if you are forced to play resistence in extended

It's... not really?

@Tlfj200 noted the tactics on this one, and I've seen those very tactics used against me - this was noted a few pages back when I threw up incoherent battle reports onto the thread. The guy had Ello because he hadn't played Nien yet, but noted it was on his list to try when we discussed it.

Poe and Nien are both better than Wedge, in my opinion. Nien can trigger his ability a freaking lot with Pattern Analyzer, whether he's moving first or last. That gives him serious action economy.

Lulo is a minor threat on his own, but he's flanking and causing distraction. Ignored he's more than annoying. Plus, if engaged, Lulo flips his guns and runs away, throwing four dice through a rock at you while Poe and Nien sneak in.

The sum is greater than the parts, I think.

That said, it is an 'aces' list, which admittedly is not my thing.

6 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

This is like a worse version of the wedge luke sabine...

I mean, maybe, but it's the best I got, and is very competitive in hyperspace (aka, x-wing).

1 minute ago, Tlfj200 said:

I mean, maybe, but it's the best I got, and is very competitive in hyperspace (aka, x-wing).

Yeah like I said it wasn't a bad thing per se, considering the whole faction doesn't look so exciting. The issue is I am playing extend.

2 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

It's... not really?

@Tlfj200 noted the tactics on this one, and I've seen those very tactics used against me - this was noted a few pages back when I threw up incoherent battle reports onto the thread. The guy had Ello because he hadn't played Nien yet, but noted it was on his list to try when we discussed it.

Poe and Nien are both better than Wedge, in my opinion. Nien can trigger his ability a freaking lot with Pattern Analyzer, whether he's moving first or last. That gives him serious action economy.

Lulo is a minor threat on his own, but he's flanking and causing distraction. Ignored he's more than annoying. Plus, if engaged, Lulo flips his guns and runs away, throwing four dice through a rock at you while Poe and Nien sneak in.

The sum is greater than the parts, I think.

That said, it is an 'aces' list, which admittedly is not my thing.

I haven't played it so take it with a grain of salt, but... In which world is Nien better than Wedge? I don't want to get lost in the wedge rabbit hole again, but I can't see how their ability are comparable without even taking into consideration ps6

Lulo is comparable with Sabine. I prefer sabine because she's doesn't need to setup to get her 3rd red dice and with comparable setup could end up with focus evade, but Lulo is good too.

Poe is strong thought, supnat Luke is strong too

20 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

This is like a worse version of the wedge luke sabine...

I, uh. Huh. I'd suggest trying it before passing judgement.