19 minutes ago, AEIllingworth said:

Y’all seem to fixate on generics really hard the last page or so. A pilot ability is just a unique upgrade that is single chassis limited, usually with some associated initiative bonus. They aren’t better or worse for the game than any other upgrade just because they are printed on ship cards.

I think I may actually like the game more with fewer upgrades at this point.

Finding (or copying) magical combos is great and all, but I've learned that the most fun part for me is solving the positioning puzzle. YMMV.

23 minutes ago, AEIllingworth said:

Y’all seem to fixate on generics really hard the last page or so. A pilot ability is just a unique upgrade that is single chassis limited, usually with some associated initiative bonus. They aren’t better or worse for the game than any other upgrade just because they are printed on ship cards.

The fact that they tend to have a wider range of effects mean some individual ones can be game breaking, but for example Kare Kun is just slightly-better-daredevil, the Pilot. (Blue Ace forever).

Right now, the balance of the game is heavily tilted towards aces with fairly large amounts of upgrades. You don't see naked uniques often, and you don't see non-uniques... kind of ever. It's not just generics, either, most of the ships with I5/6 pilots may as well not have I3/4 options - they're just not balanced against each other at current prices.

I'm not on the anti-upgrades party bus (abilities are fun!), I just want to have more than one viable pilot per ship.

The recent fixation is specifically because new points when, and the hope/expectation/fool's hope that FFG balance the playing field away from "I5-Wing" literally anyyyyyyy minute/day/month now.

25 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Of all the many things FFG got right with 2nd Edition the thing they might have gotten the most right so far appears to be making upgrades in general expensive.

Well it’s dare I say, thematic in that sense? Not everyone gets to deliver on personal contracts from the empire, or warrant their own R&D division because of their rank, or can afford the aftermarket upgrades.

14 minutes ago, svelok said:

I'm not on the anti-upgrades party bus (abilities are fun!), I just want to have more than one viable pilot per ship.

😞

28 minutes ago, svelok said:

Right now, the balance of the game is heavily tilted towards aces with fairly large amounts of upgrades. You don't see naked uniques often, and you don't see non-uniques... kind of ever. It's not just generics, either, most of the ships with I5/6 pilots may as well not have I3/4 options - they're just not balanced against each other at current prices.

I'm not on the anti-upgrades party bus (abilities are fun!), I just want to have more than one viable pilot per ship.

The recent fixation is specifically because new points when, and the hope/expectation/fool's hope that FFG balance the playing field away from "I5-Wing" literally anyyyyyyy minute/day/month now.

Is that true? I know I haven’t made it to the big tournaments yet, but from all the reporting I’m hearing it is more that people aren’t really trying anything else.

Sure, I’d like some i3 guys and generics cheaper, but has there been anyone that was recorded bringing a Bounty Hunter to a tournament? I know there were a lot of Jakku Gunrunners. Sloane’s strikers is a thing.

I3 toolboxes might be bad, but I really don’t think we know that they are bad.

Even Squad of Legend only has a max of two upgrades per ship (probably a third if it wasn’t for needing the bid). Outside of Boba, what ships have a big ol’ pile of upgrades right now?

edit: not meaning to call you out, but I’m getting whiplash on the pendulum of hyperbole. I’m still having fun, and I’ll probably still have fun if none of the point changes are significant, and I’ll have fun if every named pilot starts at 201 points.

52 minutes ago, AEIllingworth said:

The mining guild TIE is a good example, I am never going to fly a generic one without drea. I’ll just shuffle the other ships in the list until I can fit Seevor or Ahab, 4 and 6 points over the lowest respectively, or I will just leave them out.

On the Miner Ties....there are a couple anecdote lists that made various cuts without all that swarm support stuff to, mainly Ace + Many Academy Ties. Whisper Vader + Ties and Advanced Redline + Ties etc. but I think that says more about Phantoms and Punishers than it does the Tie Fighters maybe. Id consider multiple Miner Ties if I could run a good version of this with some Crack Miners instead of the Sentries.

You can do Fenn + 5 Crack Miners as is for 199 pts, though 1 of those should almost certainly be an Escape Craft due to better words and cheaper costs and 2 of those should probably be consolidated into Old T under current init kill rules and pricing. Still gets that 5 ship play style going at least. Also shout out to Han Gunner Kath Scarlet + 4 Ties + L337, probably mediocre but the idea is there.

The funny thing about the Extended Open Beta is that "Swarms" actually did pretty well when they had Control ( Crack/Tractor/Sloane ) or Dice Mod Support ( Drea/Sloane ) next to them. Advanced Optics gives FO & Resistance some options. Howl/Iden is still very good but formation/range locked which ultimately makes it boring and vulnerable to logic. CIS will almost certainly have some swarm supporting words and the Republic gets Sinker which is super cool (provided it supports more than just Four Ship Fair Ship Fair Trade Republicans).

1 hour ago, Boom Owl said:

On the Miner Ties....there are a couple anecdote lists that made various cuts without all that swarm support stuff to, mainly Ace + Many Academy Ties. Whisper Vader + Ties and Advanced Redline + Ties etc. but I think that says more about Phantoms and Punishers than it does the Tie Fighters maybe. Id consider multiple Miner Ties if I could run a good version of this with some Crack Miners instead of the Sentries.

You can do Fenn + 5 Crack Miners as is for 199 pts, though 1 of those should almost certainly be an Escape Craft due to better words and cheaper costs and 2 of those should probably be consolidated into Old T under current init kill rules and pricing. Still gets that 5 ship play style going at least. Also shout out to Han Gunner Kath Scarlet + 4 Ties + L337, probably mediocre but the idea is there.

The funny thing about the Extended Open Beta is that "Swarms" actually did pretty well when they had Control ( Crack/Tractor/Sloane ) or Dice Mod Support ( Drea/Sloane ) next to them. Advanced Optics gives FO & Resistance some options. Howl/Iden is still very good but formation/range locked which ultimately makes it boring and vulnerable to logic. CIS will almost certainly have some swarm supporting words and the Republic gets Sinker which is super cool (provided it supports more than just Four Ship Fair Ship Fair Trade Republicans).

Just call the list “Sink drop” if it becomes that?

1 hour ago, Boom Owl said:

On the Miner Ties....there are a couple anecdote lists that made various cuts without all that swarm support stuff to, mainly Ace + Many Academy Ties. Whisper Vader + Ties and Advanced Redline + Ties etc. but I think that says more about Phantoms and Punishers than it does the Tie Fighters maybe. Id consider multiple Miner Ties if I could run a good version of this with some Crack Miners instead of the Sentries.

You can do Fenn + 5 Crack Miners as is for 199 pts, though 1 of those should almost certainly be an Escape Craft due to better words and cheaper costs and 2 of those should probably be consolidated into Old T under current init kill rules and pricing. Still gets that 5 ship play style going at least. Also shout out to Han Gunner Kath Scarlet + 4 Ties + L337, probably mediocre but the idea is there.

The funny thing about the Extended Open Beta is that "Swarms" actually did pretty well when they had Control ( Crack/Tractor/Sloane ) or Dice Mod Support ( Drea/Sloane ) next to them. Advanced Optics gives FO & Resistance some options. Howl/Iden is still very good but formation/range locked which ultimately makes it boring and vulnerable to logic. CIS will almost certainly have some swarm supporting words and the Republic gets Sinker which is super cool (provided it supports more than just Four Ship Fair Ship Fair Trade Republicans).

The built in ability for the miner ties makes them excellent blockers IMO. I've played against a variation of that Kath list with Intimidation TIEs and you make a wrong move... it hurts. A lot.

Also even though it feels like an i5 meta (with the caveat that I still haven't played with every ship in 2.0), I think that most ships have viable generics and non i5 ships. The biggest abnormality is probably the TIE Advanced since it seems like you should never play anyone that is not Vader.

6 hours ago, AEIllingworth said:

I’m still having fun, and I’ll probably still have fun if none of the point changes are significant, and I’ll have fun if every named pilot starts at 201 points.

I'm also having fun!

But the game could be even more better-funner-gooderer.

9 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

On the Miner Ties....there are a couple anecdote lists that made various cuts without all that swarm support stuff to, mainly Ace + Many Academy Ties. Whisper Vader + Ties and Advanced Redline + Ties etc. but I think that says more about Phantoms and Punishers than it does the Tie Fighters maybe. Id consider multiple Miner Ties if I could run a good version of this with some Crack Miners instead of the Sentries.

You can do Fenn + 5 Crack Miners as is for 199 pts, though 1 of those should almost certainly be an Escape Craft due to better words and cheaper costs and 2 of those should probably be consolidated into Old T under current init kill rules and pricing. Still gets that 5 ship play style going at least. Also shout out to Han Gunner Kath Scarlet + 4 Ties + L337, probably mediocre but the idea is there.

I tried building, and I got Fenn Rau, Teroch, L3, Ahab, and a mining guild sentry at 200 even. Still only 1/8th generic (1/5th by ship count)(though it does manage no upgrade cards!).

There are uses uses for generics, but pricing means I’ll always take a named one over a generic with an upgrade, so upgrades are costed appropriately expensive but upgrades-built-in-with-initiative is still too good a bargain.

18 minutes ago, AEIllingworth said:

I tried building, and I got Fenn Rau, Teroch, L3, Ahab, and a mining guild sentry at 200 even. Still only 1/8th generic (1/5th by ship count)(though it does manage no upgrade cards!).

 There are uses uses for generics, but pricing means I’ll always take a named one over a generic with an upgrade, so upgrades are costed appropriately expensive but upgrades-built-in-with-initiative is still too good a bargain.

As far as named Miners Juke Seevor is solid.

17 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

Ace + 3-4 Generics is probably the most fun archetype I have used between 1.0 & 2.0

It feels like it leads to a greater mix of possible decisions and is really flexible on approach.

Even though sometimes "protecting" the ace can make it feel like your playing hyper cagey finding that middle ground is where the fun begins & the generics let you get a little more aggressive.

All of this.

I flew 2x Omega Squadron Experts, QuickDraw, and Midnight at a kit tournament this weekend (all with Fanatical, SFs with gunner)... it seems mostly fine? The generics are half the fun in the list, with the I6s there to cover endgame.

Side note, but I’m coming to think that Fanatical / Optics Midnight might be the best closer in 2nd Edition (for fewer points than the 1.0 counterpart!)

13 hours ago, svelok said:

I just want to have more than one viable pilot per ship.

done!

ITT

1 hour ago, skotothalamos said:

done!

Hypothesis: time travel does not exist.

If it did, the first edition forums would have had hope for the Punisher. As they did not, QED.

Why did I think deathrain was i3?

20 minutes ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

Why did I think deathrain was i3?

Because every initiative under 5 (except 1) is functionally identical?

Random musing: the random list tournament we had last year was tons of fun (except for the one list that was improbably good. Sensor jammer IG-B with a cannon, Palob with a turret and a naked Z I still do not buy.).

I wish randomly generated was a format. Have a third party generate the list if trust runs low. Flying actual total jank and trying to make it work was fun.

47 minutes ago, drjkel said:

Random musing: the random list tournament we had last year was tons of fun (except for the one list that was improbably good. Sensor jammer IG-B with a cannon, Palob with a turret and a naked Z I still do not buy.).

I wish randomly generated was a format. Have a third party generate the list if trust runs low. Flying actual total jank and trying to make it work was fun.

That's more or less what the draft forces as well - main problem being, models are annyoing.

That being said, I'm thinking the alternate event for the alternates that don't have anything else to do will be a draft (everything already set up and ready to go for them). What do you guys think?

21 minutes ago, Brunas said:

That's more or less what the draft forces as well - main problem being, models are annyoing.

That being said, I'm thinking the alternate event for the alternates that don't have anything else to do will be a draft (everything already set up and ready to go for them). What do you guys think?

That sounds like fun, and makes me wish I could make Krayt Cup. Last year was right before my wedding, and this year it’s right after I move cross-country.

Krayt timing on bottom!

9But a draft gives agency (in picking the components of a list). Why do you want players to have agency on their destinies?

More seriously, the one time a local List Architect handed me his custom crafted jank was one really fun game. Having to figure out in minutes how these kimos, m3as, and Z should face Kylo and 2 boats (cannon version, at least) was fun and challenging. I won by the skin of my teeth. And then bought a second kimo.

If vassal games didn't take so dang long, i think it'd be a fun format to have a third party generate one random list per faction and each player had to pick one of those 5 (7). That'd be a fascinating tournament to watch. It could even be hyperspace for all you purists.

Look at this example of random jank, what a beaut: https://raithos.github.io/?f=First Order&d=v5!h!288:177,-1,179,54,-1,10,113,-1:;261:206,-1:;287:119,186,-1,99,-1:&sn=Random Squad&obs=

14 minutes ago, drjkel said:

9But a draft gives agency (in picking the components of a list). Why do you want players to have agency on their destinies?

 More seriously, the one time a local List Architect handed me his custom crafted jank was one really fun game. Having to figure out in minutes how these kimos, m3as, and Z should face Kylo and 2 boats (cannon version, at least) was fun and challenging. I won by the skin of my teeth. And then bought a second kimo.

If vassal games didn't take so dang long, i think it'd be a fun format to have a third party generate one random list per faction and each player had to pick one of those 5 (7). That'd be a fascinating tournament to watch. It could even be hyperspace for all you purists.

 Look at this example of random jank, what a beaut: https://raithos.github.io/?f=First Order&d=v5!h!288:177,-1,179,54,-1,10,113,-1:;261:206,-1:;287:119,186,-1,99,-1:&sn=Random Squad&obs=

For the last couple months I've been hosting a tournament that uses completely random lists, and you get a new one each round. All in all it's been pretty successful, although I chose Fly Casual as the go-to software (since there's already Vassal leagues and the Kyber Cup, which I didn't want to have overlap with), which has been hit-or-miss (FlyCasual is awesome but network mode is buggy).

Anyway, the TLDR is that participants seem to agree that random lists are fun.

48 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

For the last couple months I've been hosting a tournament that uses completely random lists, and you get a new one each round. All in all it's been pretty successful, although I chose Fly Casual as the go-to software (since there's already Vassal leagues and the Kyber Cup, which I didn't want to have overlap with), which has been hit-or-miss (FlyCasual is awesome but network mode is buggy).

Anyway, the TLDR is that participants seem to agree that random lists are fun.

I wish I had more free time...

Day 2 remains with no points.