Just now, Brunas said:

If you were nuking SR from orbit, you don't knock Vader down to 47 or whatever. You nuke it to where naked Vader is playable.

Yeah, and that's what I'd like to see.

What I don't know, is whether you can price Super Vader and naked Vader to both be simultaneously viable. (/Luke/Kylo/etc)

56 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

so... if SNR becomes oppressive and unfun, and wins a lot (jsut making cut, let's not limit ourselves to tournament 1st only), but it's PAST January and the next points update is Summer...

...

...

Suck it down?

Ffg initially promised points adjustments 3-4 times per year, plus emergencies.

This is unbearably slow.

37 minutes ago, impspy said:

Yeah that's my whole point. SNR was designed/released initially with 2.0; it wasn't the result of feature creep that Dash and Tactical represent.

At the risk of sounding stupid, its not gonna be a problem for FFG unless it becomes a problem.

Finally, and I know y'all hate this, but the theme is important to them. FFG wants the Iconic Force Users to be good and set apart from the other pilots; SNR is a relatively easy way, paired with the tokens, to let them be that.

they remade dozens of ships and hundred of cards. the consensus is that it ain't balanced. I, unlike the majority of players, do not the developers intentions, so until they say that they paid particular attention to supernatural and it's interactions, I can't say that feature creep, even within the first release isn't a problem (see, dash roark, qi'ra han, composure).

I don't have a problem with them making iconic characters good. But I want them to choose ways that are good for the game, not easy.

1 hour ago, Boom Owl said:

Unlikely it will get removed from Hyperspace true.

But I do still genuinely feel like FFG is going to address it in some significant way for reasons unrelated to meta statistics.

Jedi might be a reason to address it, rather than a reason not to.

Jedi at least aren't stapled to it as the other small-base force users are. Granted, their ship ability procs only after a completed maneuver and pre-movement repositioning is strong, so we certainly will see Supernatural Jedi. However, with that movement shenanigan built into the ship, at least is opens the window to other force talents (unfortunately, that seems to mainly be Brilliant Evasion or Predictive Shot and not much else. At least Predictive Shot will crank out the damage on 2 dice shots if you aren't rocking either of the configurations).

1 hour ago, Tlfj200 said:

I mean, just because SNR didn't perform well in the beta test doesn't mean there's no a problem, right?

does the data say that SNR didn't perform well? I know it didn't make a lot of cuts, but the SNR vs non SNR stats for vader are so different they might as well be different ships. That in and of itself is an indication of the strength of SNR.

On 12/5/2018 at 1:52 PM, player3010587 said:

Anybody try out a 3 generic inquistor spam with SupNat?

It leaves you with 44 points for something else, and they can link to a red focus and clear stress on that move with one of their tricky blues.

I'd try it if I was imp.

2 minutes ago, Bucknife said:

Anybody try out a 3 generic inquistor spam with SupNat?

It leaves you with 44 points for something else, and they can link to a red focus and clear stress on that move with one of their tricky blues.

I'd try it if I was imp.

I didn't come here to shoot 2 dice shots with my 56 point ships.

Just now, Bucknife said:

Anybody try out a 3 generic inquist or spam WITH supNat?

It leaves you with 44 points for something else, and they can link to a red focus and clear stress on that move with one of their tricky blues.

I'd try it if I was imp.

I've dabbled with it for the lols. All it really does with a dial as slow (albeit blue) as that one is let you token stack focus and evade, which force technically already had with calculate and evade. My favorite use of generic inky's is 3 of them with heightened perception and concussion missiles, with Jendon and crew of choice. Not S-tier, but they bite harder than they let on, especially with the missile's ability flipping pre-existing facedown cards before it deals its own (crazy when one of the flipped is hull breach or fuel leak). And 3 fully modded 3 dice shots at I7 do scare Wedge sometimes!

2 hours ago, svelok said:

Yeah, and that's what I'd like to see.

What I don't know, is whether you can price Super Vader and naked Vader to both be simultaneously viable. (/Luke/Kylo/etc)

No, but the whole point of giving someone the Luke Gunner treatment is so that it isn't viable. There isn't a price you could put on supernatural reflexes where both kylo and Vader naked, and super kylo and Vader are all viable but not broken.

8 minutes ago, Brunas said:

No, but the whole point of giving someone the Luke Gunner treatment is so that it isn't viable. There isn't a price you could put on supernatural reflexes where both kylo and Vader naked, and super kylo and Vader are all viable but not broken.

This^^^^

Some people fly SNR as a purely reactive tool. They are the scrubs who've never flown a striker like a true fanatic. When they are outbid or if a semi-mobile I6 rolls up, they start to sweat. Similarly, with moving last, they somehow consider themselves unbeatable.

I can't pretend for even a second that I am not a scrub, but at least I try to emulate the SNR pros: getting that opportune position with or without moving first. Play the game of Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's maniac: consider all possible motives, telegraphs, game-states, information knowledge, ways to mess with your opponent's plans, ways to surprise your opponent...etc. In other words, although perfect information should always be strived for, when the game itself is playing out you need to feed yourself that information through deduction, and if your grasp of the game is good enough, then deviations from the more universal principles from which you make these deductions should result in worse game states for your opponent. And when you are able to pull off that move as the first ship moving and they seem surprised and somewhat fazed, that's an amazing feeling.

Now when the latter player outperforms the former player, far more often than not it is because that player is striving for that information and honing in his game sense in clarifying his objectives both immediate and far. When people see datapoints populated by the former player, the inclination is to think "Eh, not a good pilot/upgrade." Similarly, seeing the datapoints populated by the likes good enough for Coruscant, it becomes "Holy **** is Supernatural Vader a ****** monster! And naked Soontir is good? Awwwwww.....****! Imperial Bias by FFG!" Mix the two, and you get data that says the obvious: Boba and Whisper are always in and out of the cut without fail, meaning that they are both very good (and perchance undercosted or have too many too good upgrades available), but that a lesser player cannot leverage all the mileage out of them needed to generate the apocalypse. Case in point: Origins Game Fair 2018. Whereas my Kylo went 4-2 and made some costly mistakes out of getting antsy without perfect information, Brian Thiel (whose version did not have a primed thrusters PS11 Quickdraw in exchange for LWF on Countdown) beats a friend of mine flying Ghost Fenn, the near-exact matchup I resigned to fate when I lost to him in a kit tourney practicing for this event! And Phil Horny, flying Brian's list, wins the whole thing, outdoing Scum and Rebel alphas when his Quickdraw still moves before all of his opposing stuff! Considering the lack of actions of any sort when you pop a Sloop, that terrifies me doing so blindly with so many arcs I can't properly predict! And yet, this is not shocking play that I had assumed when I watched from a few tables over. This is just good play and what the best players take for granted as part of the game.

And off topic, but as dandy as a hate Vader seems to me (especially with a coordinate nearby), the SNR>>Focus>>Lock talon combo is too dank to not be tempted to ruin your game not to try it for the lols.

Why does the X-Wing community actively avoid writing, reading, or discussing battle reports?

Is there a consistent format/structure to do it without video or vassal logs that would be useful, efficient, and genuine?

Is the main issue that its often to wordy, exaggerated, and difficult to visualize?

Do other miniatures games have a similar “we dont battle report” type culture?

29 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Why does the X-Wing community actively avoid writing, reading, or discussing battle reports?

Is there a consistent format/structure to do it without video or vassal logs that would be useful, efficient, and genuine?

Is the main issue that its often to wordy, exaggerated, and difficult to visualize?

Do other miniatures games have a similar “we dont battle report” type culture?

I (unironically) blame NoVa Squadron radio. They were an early adopter, and spent large chuncks of time relaying what happened in games they played without much analysis.

In a broader sense, we went text and podcast, where video or vassal logs are infinitely better to recap and talk strategy. A few YouTube channels are starting to get it, Dion had the dual channel thing where people talked through their strategy, and Sith Takers have a good format (though really only the coruscant prep episode was strategy deep).

I heard something about Soon(tm).

edit: I’m making a strong effort to not mention upgrades or even full ship lists when making conversation at the FLGS, instead hitting setup and whether I got the flanks I was going for, and if they just honorably jousted me. I think it is making a difference.

Battle Report:

The TIE/SF doesn't have a 4k...? Oops!

<bad things>

SNR Kylo can almost solo an entire list of I6s... almost

So, the french national is filled in, with 10 lists missing.

edit: it doesn't really change any conclusion, but the squad number went back up to 675, so almost compensates for Mynock and Nordics

8 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

Why does the X-Wing community actively avoid writing, reading, or discussing battle reports?

Is there a consistent format/structure to do it without video or vassal logs that would be useful, efficient, and genuine?

Is the main issue that its often to wordy, exaggerated, and difficult to visualize?

Do other miniatures games have a similar “we dont battle report” type culture?

In 40k and Warhammer Fantasy there was a strong battle report culture for a long time, although the more ambitious and elaborate reporters always took pictures or made drawings. Sadly, the advent of YouTube really put a damper on this, as filming and editing was considered easier or better and lots of reports were done that way instead of through text.

The usefulness of the report was directly related to what the player was trying to get out of the report. Detailed tactics were often hard without pictures, but general ideas and stuff that did or didn't work could be more useful.

8 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

discussing battle reports

Isn't it mostly the discussion that's lacking? In part because specifics and context seem to matter so much?

I write down my games with some notes. The broader strokes are more interesting to me, and that can be reduced to target priority, critical maneuvers, and general gameplan/setup.

But I'm not going to evaluate the dice rolls, so I will never know whether I just felt lucky or whether I truly was. And I'm not putting as much thought into every dial/situation as I do for example for these puzzle series.

Discussion if it happens at all gets reduced to matchup, dice luck, first player, and other points where we can point to reasons outside of the game. I think that's a shame.

Battle reports in X-Wing are tricky because positioning matters so much. Take my last game.

Me: Ello, Lulo, Chewie w/ Rey and 3po

Them: Jonus and barrage/dorsal Aggressors with Redline

He cornered rocks to get more open space, I put debris in the middle to block lanes.

He deployed the barrage box centrally, I put Chewie and Ello right and Lulo left, he drops Redline across from Chewie. I planned to avoid the barrage box's front arcs and hard flank with Lulo to draw him away or punish. Redline moves last so I'll keep arcs wide and try to corner him.

Chewie banks in then 3 hards with a boost to be on the board edge giving Redline no good place to go while Ello also goes 4 plus boost just to get out of barrage and redline danger zones. The safest place to be against redline and barrages is right in their face. Barrages turned in on Ello and Chewie so Lulo is free to punish from behind. Jonus goes out.

Barrage boys out of position switch to relying on Dorsals while Redline has to circle the debris. Chewie keeps broadsiding while Ello and Lulo try to thin their numbers while Redline gets back in. Chewie is getting chipped away, but one aggressor goes out. Mistake for me here was not boosting to dodge an arc and avoid a R1 dorsal.

The other big turn was Redline re engaging while Lulo chased aggressors and Chewie rounded the corner. Ello trolled next to redline facing where he was going to keep shots on him. Redline lights chewie up, who super takes damage with 1 agility and no cheating allowed. Redline is put down to 2.

Chewie sets his arc wide while Ello and Lulo try to bully Redline. He can't dodge everything and dies. The last aggressor gets mopped up.

Just a rough one, but it's difficult to get a feel for the board state from just text.

9 minutes ago, Chumbalaya said:

Just a rough one, but it's difficult to get a feel for the board state from just text.

I think it's a good example on how to do it right.

It opens up discussion on several points that are interesting. For example that Ello is safest in their face, or your target priority, or whether you could/should have disengaged with Chewie when he became the target of Redline.

Related - video done

Not a polished product but this one was to see if I could.

Also I learned that while I understand random and variance I still complain and talk like an idiot. I’m going to be actively cutting back on that.

1 hour ago, LagJanson said:

Related - video done

Thats pretty cool man! Thanks for sharing.

Also lots of good responses about the Battle Reports question.

Videos ( like above ) or Vassal Logs are obviously best for this type of stuff but they are super high effort & time consuming.

Written Game Recaps/Breakdowns focused on quick high level Things I did well, Things I did poorly, Things that I learned should be a logical default topic for most X-Wing discussions.

Right alongside classic fan favorite default topics like complaining about Dice, Bids that are lower than my bid, Supernatural, Turrets, Hyper Modification, Format Preferences, & Small Bases in Large Boxes.

2.0 is actually semi-interesting so maybe concise decision focused game recaps is going to become more common.

2 hours ago, Chumbalaya said:

Battle reports in X-Wing are tricky because positioning matters so much. Take my last game.

Me: Ello, Lulo, Chewie w/ Rey and 3po

Them: Jonus and barrage/dorsal Aggressors with Redline

He cornered rocks to get more open space, I put debris in the middle to block lanes.

He deployed the barrage box centrally, I put Chewie and Ello right and Lulo left, he drops Redline across from Chewie. I planned to avoid the barrage box's front arcs and hard flank with Lulo to draw him away or punish. Redline moves last so I'll keep arcs wide and try to corner him.

Chewie banks in then 3 hards with a boost to be on the board edge giving Redline no good place to go while Ello also goes 4 plus boost just to get out of barrage and redline danger zones. The safest place to be against redline and barrages is right in their face. Barrages turned in on Ello and Chewie so Lulo is free to punish from behind. Jonus goes out.

Barrage boys out of position switch to relying on Dorsals while Redline has to circle the debris. Chewie keeps broadsiding while Ello and Lulo try to thin their numbers while Redline gets back in. Chewie is getting chipped away, but one aggressor goes out. Mistake for me here was not boosting to dodge an arc and avoid a R1 dorsal.

The other big turn was Redline re engaging while Lulo chased aggressors and Chewie rounded the corner. Ello trolled next to redline facing where he was going to keep shots on him. Redline lights chewie up, who super takes damage with 1 agility and no cheating allowed. Redline is put down to 2.

Chewie sets his arc wide while Ello and Lulo try to bully Redline. He can't dodge everything and dies. The last aggressor gets mopped up.

Just a rough one, but it's difficult to get a feel for the board state from just text.

I started a project about a year and a half ago to try and develop a shorthand to use for describing position, but it was in the doldrums of 1st ed, so, you know...

It probably merits revisiting.

It was something like this:

Board locations: board was divided into 9 zones (N, NE, E, SE, S, SW, W, NW, Center) based on the perspective of the player. "My Interceptors deployed in the southeast, and an opening 5-straight + boost took them just into the eastern zone".

-it would probably be better to include more specific terminology for different places like the left and right alleys where there are no obstacles. Maybe the compass rose would be specific for the obstacle populated region. I don't know.

Individual relative ship positions would use classic clock face terminology with distances in range increments "Luke was about range 4 at 2 o'clock from Soontir Fel".

'Periphery' for the range 2 band around the rock zone?

Roger Roger

Writing or podcasting battle reports takes a lot more work than talking about card combos. Just like talking about chess is difficult compared to talking about Magic: The Gathering. Chess evolved a whole notation system to describe games so people could quickly read transcriptions of games.

I really want X-Wing to be a lot closer to space chess than space Magic. I support anyone who helps bring it closer to that end.