5 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

well that's the question. Does a deep bid really lead to more bidding?

No. Deep bids exist for very specific lists to get more value from 2 undercosted mechanics High Init Kill Ordinance and Premovement Dial Highly Casual. The rest and vast majority barely bid at all or bid by accident ( 193 pt Double Dash ).

I think a few specific lists bid down low enough to own an entire “archetype” tree and then everything else just invests.

7 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

well that's the question. Does a deep bid really lead to more bidding?

more as in more lists bidding or as in deeper bids?

24 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

No. Deep bids exist for very specific lists to get more value from 2 undercosted mechanics High Init Kill Ordinance and Premovement Dial Highly Casual. The rest and vast majority barely bid at all or bid by accident ( 193 pt Double Dash ).

I think a few specific lists bid down low enough to own an entire “archetype” tree and then everything else just invests.

If this is true, wouldn't it imply that the current bidding mechanic is fine and points adjusting for high initiative will solve the perceived issue of Bidwing?

Just now, Micanthropyre said:

If this is true, wouldn't it imply that the current bidding mechanic is fine and points adjusting for high initiative will solve the perceived issue of Bidwing?

Sort of, yeah.

The ordinance is correlated, but it's also a product of how the target lock action works. Just make them more expensive - x-wing doesnt lose anything if ordinance is barely used.

18 minutes ago, Micanthropyre said:

If this is true, wouldn't it imply that the current bidding mechanic is fine and points adjusting for high initiative will solve the perceived issue of Bidwing?

Thats my opinion. At least I think FFG should start with point adjustments to a very specific set of things as a first choice response.

Changing bid rules could end up solving a lesser problem and just make already fat things that dont bid fatter than the max 200 pts and cause unintended knowable consequences ( Make the best fattest most defensive fat turret slightly more fat since the majority of lists only bid 2-3 pts and trade one mobile point fortress for another version of the same basic win condition ).

Kinda separate note, but I also think the percieved issue of Bidwing was caused by the removal of 360 turrets and veteran instinct/adaptability. This timeline was not unknowable. It was at least initially always going to be a part of the cost of playing a better version of the game.

1 hour ago, jagsba said:

more as in more lists bidding or as in deeper bids?

both, really.

Here it is, limited to those lists where points are known:

https://i.imgur.com/wVd9D5X.png

125 of these 401 lists bid down to 195 points or lower, so 31%. Going to 197 points (which included my Whisper Redline Soontir list) it jumps to 42%, and then up to 52% when looking for bids from 198 down.

Looking into which ships were frequent when cutting to those lists at 199 and 200 points is the next graph:

https://i.imgur.com/u4Eko5H.png

Or easier, combined:

14 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

both, really.

Here it is, limited to those lists where points are known:

https://i.imgur.com/wVd9D5X.png

125 of these 401 lists bid down to 195 points or lower, so 31%. Going to 197 points (which included my Whisper Redline Soontir list) it jumps to 42%, and then up to 52% when looking for bids from 198 down.

Looking into which ships were frequent when cutting to those lists at 199 and 200 points is the next graph:

https://i.imgur.com/u4Eko5H.png

Or easier, combined:

How many or what % bid Below 190? I dont know why but for me anything at or above a Thweek Bid is basically “normal”. Once people see that number 8 across the table the bid is usually considered outrageous by the community. Or it might be simpler and just be any bid thats greater than my bid is breaking the game.

30 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

x-wing doesnt lose anything if ordinance is barely used.

Things to repeat until ffg listens

2 minutes ago, jagsba said:

Things to repeat until ffg listens

But muh theme.

2 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

How many or what % bid Below 190? To me anything at or above a Thweek Bid is basically “normal”.

I can make the cutoff wherever you want. Below 190 was not much. I think 192 already counts as deep bid, and even 195 is relatively serious about it.

Below 190: 39 (10%)
down to 190: 46 (11%)
down to 192: 73 (18%)
down to 195: 125 (31%) as mentioned before

The graph with 195 as cutoff looks like this:

Interesting to note how many people are correct.

6 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

I can make the cutoff wherever you want. Below 190 was not much. I think 192 already counts as deep bid, and even 195 is relatively serious about it.

Below 190: 39 (10%)
down to 190: 46 (11%)
down to 192: 73 (18%)
down to 195: 125 (31%) as mentioned before

The graph with 195 as cutoff looks like this:

Interesting to note how many people are correct.

Yea i picked 190 because i think its like a psychological bid range for alot of people. Might be projecting but certain pt totals “feel safe” and that seems like one of them. “No ones crazy enough to bid to 189 with this right?”

196 is one of those thresholds to probably.

Just now, Boom Owl said:

Yea i picked 190 because i think its like a psychological bid range for alot of people. Might projecting but certain pt totals “feel safe” and that seems like one of them. “No ones crazy enough to bid to 189 with this right? Right?”

This is the split by pilots

Boba/Guri and Whisper/Redline/Soontir go deep, with some few Fenn/Teroch, Duchess and Grand Inqi

I may be new-ish to the game, but the problem with initiative pilots is that they both get more perfect information, and the ability to sometimes escape consequences by virtue of killing things before they shoot.

The first-player war is around at the moment because named, high-initiative pilots are defining the meta, and are very, very powerful.

The fact that it exists is a sign that FFG should look hard at basically every pilot with an I of 5+ and figure out how many points they need to go up by.

People fly high-Initiative pilots because they are easy, and require less planning. The fact that they are good now is what caused the bid war.

14 minutes ago, Alyx'sDog said:

I may be new-ish to the game, but the problem with initiative pilots is that they both get more perfect information, and the ability to sometimes escape consequences by virtue of killing things before they shoot.

The first-player war is around at the moment because named, high-initiative pilots are defining the meta, and are very, very powerful.

The fact that it exists is a sign that FFG should look hard at basically every pilot with an I of 5+ and figure out how many points they need to go up by.

People fly high-Initiative pilots because they are easy, and require less planning. The fact that they are good now is what caused the bid war.

It’s probably a bit more complicated, if redline or proton torpedoes go up all the bids can go down, because moving after redline to not get torpedoed is a huge driving factor in the i5 bids.

Edit: and some of the reason the squad of legend works so well is that everyone is flying three ships. There is no way that people tested their way to three ship builds, right?

8 minutes ago, AEIllingworth said:

everyone is flying three ships.

This is such a huge part of it to...and I still dont really have a good way to explain why besides people dont like to use more than 3 ships.

Hey, remember this FO Silencer 'Leak'?

It also spelled Sienar wrong, and people called it fake...

Anyways, when this leak was posted, people said the Silencers were overcosted.

This silencer is 3 points cheaper than the i1, 3 points more expensive than the i4, but it has ******* Force.

The silencer generics are TIE Interceptors who are forced to take 3 mods that they *do not want*, and at only a 1 point discount (22 vs 23)

The Interceptor itself has 2 mods. You can make a 3/3/4/1 i4 ship for 55, vs 62 for 3/3/4/2. And that 3/3/4/1 is a known bad deal.

Why are we even considering a silencer not named Kylo? (Aka Supernatural Reflexes)

2 hours ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

Why are we even considering a silencer not named Kylo? (Aka Supernatural Reflexes)

Yeah, don't do that

13 minutes ago, Brunas said:

Yeah, don't do that

that's the problem I guess. I want to be able to run generic Silencers without gimping myself that badly.

independent of SuperKylo, how much is the Silencer chassis overpriced by?

5 points? 6? 7? More?

4 hours ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

that's the problem I guess. I want to be able to run generic Silencers without gimping myself that badly.

independent of SuperKylo, how much is the Silencer chassis overpriced by?

5 points? 6? 7? More?

How much are almost all generics over costed compared to ace pilots flying the same chassis?

1 hour ago, LagJanson said:

How much are almost all generics over costed compared to ace pilots flying the same chassis?

Soontir

Vader

Fenn Rau

Boba

Guri

Redline

May as well not even have a generic platform when those pilots are the only seen in mass for the chassis.

1 hour ago, LagJanson said:

How much are almost all generics over costed compared to ace pilots flying the same chassis?

I have no idea. But god **** is the problem noticeable on Silencers.

I got my first chance to run Kylo in a non-solitaire game last night. I used the stock SNR/Primed build, and also had the almost stock Proton Torps. After the game, I found myself also wanting to spend 3 points on Homing Missiles.

In the quest for good shot exchanges with Kylo, I had a fair amount of range 3 shots. The Homers would let you plink in a damage while retaining tokens for later. The range 3 primary where you need to spend force/lock to push through a single damage feels lame for a 100+ point ship. I feel like Homers would mitigate that for cheap. Am I crazy?

Is it then correct to call the bluff and not take the 1 damage as response? Depending on the rest of the squad of course, and whether they can shoot Kylo.

10 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

I got my first chance to run Kylo in a non-solitaire game last night. I used the stock SNR/Primed build, and also had the almost stock Proton Torps. After the game, I found myself also wanting to spend 3 points on Homing Missiles.

In the quest for good shot exchanges with Kylo, I had a fair amount of range 3 shots. The Homers would let you plink in a damage while retaining tokens for later. The range 3 primary where you need to spend force/lock to push through a single damage feels lame for a 100+ point ship. I feel like Homers would mitigate that for cheap. Am I crazy?

I want to keep him cheap (102 pts!!!) cause you want some squad mates that can do something. What did you fly beside him?

6 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Is it then correct to call the bluff and not take the 1 damage as response? Depending on the rest of the squad of course, and whether they can shoot Kylo.

The problem is that one time you decide to take the damage is when you roll all blanks and they natty you to half points

the only time you chance it is when you are in the threshold of half points anyway if you take one damage...and still dice variance scares me