15 minutes ago, Roundy1161 said:

How many of those Vaders had supernatural?

My scouring through lists has shown a lot seem to not run supernatural on him.

I know when I'm building lists with him, I find it kinda hard to effectively fill out the balance of the list.

I think the main problem is that, one on one, SNR Vader can take on pretty much any other small base ship. However, the lack of a native boost on the chassis, an omission which, while fair, really keeps him from maximizing basically the only force power worth taking and leaving without the tools needed to be an effective arc dodger, leaves him incredibly vulnerable to basically anything more than 2-3 ship lists. Couple this with a need for a bid to work and you have a problem that isn't easy to solve since the main problem is the chassis itself...

19 minutes ago, Roundy1161 said:

How many of those Vaders had supernatural?

My scouring through lists has shown a lot seem to not run supernatural on him.

I know when I'm building lists with him, I find it kinda hard to effectively fill out the balance of the list.

like ~40%? He does significantly better with SNR rather than w/o

This Vader would have been worth the cost while still leaving the chassis bad for the non-Vader pilots.

1 hour ago, impspy said:

This Vader would have been worth the cost while still leaving the chassis bad for the non-Vader pilots.

I don't think it's supposed to be bad.

To answer the other questions, Travis made a fancy thing:

Can we say that we were overrating supernatural quite a bit then? Or is SuperLuke faring better?

20 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

Can we say that we were overrating supernatural quite a bit then? Or is SuperLuke faring better?

Supernatural Vader requires a higher skill level than Super Luke because of the lack of boost.

So we are not comparing the same upgrade, in reality.

3 minutes ago, Darth Seridur said:

Supernatural Vader requires a higher skill level than Super Luke because of the lack of boost.

So we are not comparing the same upgrade, in reality.

I was referring to the fact that Supernatural was widely regarded as extremely strong and potentially even game breaking in the early days of 2.0 by many if not all frequent posters of this thread, myself included.

So far it doesn't seem it's even remotely close to what we were fearing, at least on Vader. I don't have numbers for SuperLuke thought, but I don't think he's doing good either.

17 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

I was referring to the fact that Supernatural was widely regarded as extremely strong and potentially even game breaking in the early days of 2.0 by many if not all frequent posters of this thread, myself included.

So far it doesn't seem it's even remotely close to what we were fearing, at least on Vader. I don't have numbers for SuperLuke thought, but I don't think he's doing good either.

I wonder if the higher skill level, in comparison to some of the other available lists, mean we are not seeing it being abused to its potential? (By the very best players.)

Vader is fragile. Why play that when you can play super efficient Scum jousting, for example?

Luke still has nerfed regen at least. So he is different in addition to the boost capability of his Super (without taking damage).

There is also the factor that Super Vader costs so much, so the ship is good, but not the list. Compare that to some of the Scum 4 ships that have been dominating events.

56 minutes ago, Darth Seridur said:

I wonder if the higher skill level, in comparison to some of the other available lists, mean we are not seeing it being abused to its potential? (By the very best players.)

Vader is fragile. Why play that when you can play super efficient Scum jousting, for example?

Luke still has nerfed regen at least. So he is different in addition to the boost capability of his Super (without taking damage).

There is also the factor that Super Vader costs so much, so the ship is good, but not the list. Compare that to some of the Scum 4 ships that have been dominating events.

Vader is costed to fit alongside half a TIE swarm (which don't seem to be doing well anywhere but second edition format and sometimes Sloane lists?)

Vader + Howl + 3 Academies is very much a list that FFG intended to be good/popular/whatever, at least inasmuch as Luke/Wedge/Dutch on the Rebel side. And maybe it is in 2.0 format, I dunno, but FFG might be reluctantant to lower Vader's price far enough that whatever amount of sense it makes to run that TIE swarm with him goes down even further.

1 hour ago, Darth Seridur said:

I wonder if the higher skill level, in comparison to some of the other available lists, mean we are not seeing it being abused to its potential? (By the very best players.)

Vader is fragile. Why play that when you can play super efficient Scum jousting, for example?

I think this whole "higher skill level" is a myth: it's not that vader is particulary harder than Luke or anything else, it's just that it's a fragile and expansive ship that after all has only a limited amount of places where he can go any given turn if he want to shoot and any comptent opponent knows and exploits it

1 hour ago, Darth Seridur said:

Luke still has nerfed regen at least. So he is different in addition to the boost capability of his Super (without taking damage).

There is also the factor that Super Vader costs so much, so the ship is good, but not the list. Compare that to some of the Scum 4 ships that have been dominating events.

Luke has the same cost issues of Vader thought, he's good but his wingmates not so much. Especially because Luke needs the inititive bid more than the Sith Lord

http://starfightermafia.blogspot.com/2018/11/article-4-critical-turns-and-other.html?m=1

Article 5 is up!

9 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

http://starfightermafia.blogspot.com/2018/11/article-4-critical-turns-and-other.html?m=1

Article 5 is up!

9 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

article-4

Article 5

I labeled it wrong when I first made the article, immediately corrected the title, but the url didn't change.

4 hours ago, Sunitsa said:

Can we say that we were overrating supernatural quite a bit then?

I think so. Show me on the meta doll where Supernatural is hurting you. Also show me on the meta doll where Luke is the best pilot in the game. Huh, yeah, I can't find those spots on the doll, either.

4 hours ago, Sunitsa said:

Can we say that we were overrating supernatural quite a bit then? Or is SuperLuke faring better?

As one of the people talking about supernatural, I think the closer answer is I (and maybe we) underestimated everything else. I did not realize how good Vader crew was, I could tell redline and boba were strong, but didn't have them as S tier, and Sloane is stresshog lowrick and Biggs all at once, to name a few. If I had to pick one ship for one game in wave one it would have been Vader. That said the burden of execution over a long tournament is definitely higher with Supernatural, which influenced my decision making at theb two tournaments I've been to.

1 hour ago, Biophysical said:

http://starfightermafia.blogspot.com/2018/11/article-4-critical-turns-and-other.html?m=1

Article 5 is up!

Interesting thoughts - it starts out strong, but IMO sort of fizzles out. I like the squad you brought up to discuss too. I think that it could use at least one more pass to refine and unify the article. I liked how you defined a critical turn.

My problem is that supernatural and advanced sensors trivializes things that move before them.

Unbeatable? No.

Not fun/good for the game? yes.

5 minutes ago, Scott Pilgrim2 said:

Interesting thoughts - it starts out strong, but IMO sort of fizzles out. I like the squad you brought up to discuss too. I think that it could use at least one more pass to refine and unify the article. I liked how you defined a critical turn.

Yeah, I have been working on it in bits and pieces, which is the source of the haphazard nature. I didn't think it was going to get anywhere any time soon, so just decided to publish. Not ideal, but that's what happened.

Just now, Tlfj200 said:

My problem is that supernatural and advanced sensors trivializes things that move before them.

Unbeatable? No.

Not fun/good for the game? yes.

I think they trivialize certain things, but not on a widespread basis. For example, SNR Vader is pretty harsh against I5s that rely on maneuver. He's a lot less harsh against 5 ship lists, where extra maneuverability kind of just takes you from one firing arc to another.

6 minutes ago, catachanninja said:

As one of the people talking about supernatural, I think the closer answer is I (and maybe we) underestimated everything else. I did not realize how good Vader crew was, I could tell redline and boba were strong, but didn't have them as S tier, and Sloane is stresshog lowrick and Biggs all at once, to name a few. If I had to pick one ship for one game in wave one it would have been Vader. That said the burden of execution over a long tournament is definitely higher with Supernatural, which influenced my decision making at theb two tournaments I've been to.

Its weird though. Vader is in my opinion considerably more forgiving to use than say Fenn or Guri.

Id say he is about equal to Whisper Vader Crew in terms of capability. Hes just more expensive and possibly appropriately costed.

I hope no ones take away is that I5-I6 Supernatural or even Advanced Sensors is somehow fair and balanced. Because its not.

2 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

I hope no ones take away is that I5-I6 Supernatural or even Advanced Sensors is somehow fair and balanced. Because its not.

Truth. I don't think they're horrifically oppressive, but I'd rather they not be in the game.

3 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

Truth. I don't think they're horrifically oppressive, but I'd rather they not be in the game.

I want to set my dial and see what I screwed up.

4 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

My problem is that supernatural and advanced sensors trivializes things that move before them.

Unbeatable? No.

Not fun/good for the game? yes.

Yeah, I've seen that. I think I've said before that I've never apologized more to my opponent for my own list than when running SN Vader. I just don't think either he nor SN Luke can fit enough in a list with them (right now) to be S tier. That might be for the best.

3 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Its weird though. Vader is in my opinion considerably more forgiving to use than say Fenn or Guri.

Individually, yeah, but he should be at his cost. In a list, I don't think it's even close...I'll continue to take Fenn in a competitive scum list over SN Vader and (maybe?) a competitive Imperial list. That might just be me, though.

5 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

Yeah, I have been working on it in bits and pieces, which is the source of the haphazard nature. I didn't think it was going to get anywhere any time soon, so just decided to publish. Not ideal, but that's what happened.

Trust me, I totally get it when you just go "that's as good as it is going to get, let's deliver a product". I end up doing a lot of editing in my job (mostly because tech people have no idea how to write), so I impulsively give feedback sometimes. To borrow a phrase from George Lucas who borrowed it from Da Vinci, writings are never released, they are abandoned.

Just to add to this.....I have used Super Vader a decent amt since 2.0 dropped and I can say I have played games that felt 100% like 1.0 Kylo provided I manage my Afterburner, Force Charges, and Shield Boost charges wisely.

The only thing that keeps it reasonable is that the chassis is bad as previously stated and the list building restrictions make it more of challenge to fit into a list than say the handful of 10-15 pt undercosted Ships like Redline, Boba, Quadjumper, Palob, Whisper, etc.