50 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

This is a list building counter, but Midnight is looking pretty freaking good against Boba, right? Beats his initiative, denies modifications, should be maneuverable enough to effectively knife fight with him.

I'm such a sucker, I'm excited for all the new factions. Midnight/Kylo/x may be strong depending on the costs.

Ok guys, my last game of 1.0 was a top16 national loss against a reaper, echo and ps2 punisher list.

Echo.

And ps 2 punisher.

I was flying ghost fenn...

Wave 14 was probably one of the most varied meta this game has ever seen, it's sad it only reached that point when everyone stopped caring about 1

8 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

Ok guys, my last game of 1.0 was a top16 national loss against a reaper, echo and ps2 punisher list.

Echo.

And ps 2 punisher.

I was flying ghost fenn...

Wave 14 was probably one of the most varied meta this game has ever seen, it's sad it only reached that point when everyone stopped caring about 1

I mean Top 2 at US nationals was two TIE/Ds and a bomber. Though is it because Wave 14 really broke open the meta or did people stop caring when 2.0 was announced?

Probably a bit of both.

24 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

Ok guys, my last game of 1.0 was a top16 national loss against a reaper, echo and ps2 punisher list.

Echo.

And ps 2 punisher.

I was flying ghost fenn...

Wave 14 was probably one of the most varied meta this game has ever seen, it's sad it only reached that point when everyone stopped caring about 1

people keep throwing "most varied" out as if 1) it's true, but also 2) it's an end goal worthy unto itself.

I no longer care enough to even evaluate if wave 14 was varied as opposed to previous metas (as demonstrated previous metas were about as varied in each season as each other), but the hyperbolic crap that 1.0 had, at its end, is not fun.

Variance (if there even is more variance than in the past) is not a substitute for balance.

The plural of anecdote is not "data".

16 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

The plural of anecdote is not "data".

It's yarns.

37 minutes ago, Scott Pilgrim2 said:

Though is it because Wave 14 really broke open the meta or did people stop caring when 2.0 was announced? 

People stopped caring and brought again what they deemed fun. And it turned out that the field of A tier squads was much wider than widely believed. Maybe unknown lists got their bonus for being unknown and that might have faded fast.

But the bad parts of 1.0 were absolutely horrible, and no rose colored glasses should let us forget that. Especially wave 14.

On 7/25/2017 at 9:00 AM, Chumbalaya said:

I'm Jeremy Chamblee and this is my favorite thread on the forums.

First step is admitting it.

6 minutes ago, AlexW said:

First step is admitting it.

538 pages too late.

1 hour ago, Tlfj200 said:

people keep throwing "most varied" out as if 1) it's true, but also 2) it's an end goal worthy unto itself.

I no longer care enough to even evaluate if wave 14 was varied as opposed to previous metas (as demonstrated previous metas were about as varied in each season as each other), but the hyperbolic crap that 1.0 had, at its end, is not fun.

Variance (if there even is more variance than in the past) is not a substitute for balance.

Surely "varied" means people chose to handicap themselves and not take Nymanda. As one of the absolute ultimate toolbox lists. In terms of dealing with the vagaries of swiss/cut matchups.

Also, there must have been some element of "not caring." Numbers at UK Nationals in mid August were down from last year.

I don't know about US Nationals (Nova) which happened 1-2 weeks after, and normally i would have instantly tried to find out that sort of thing.

5 minutes ago, Darth Seridur said:

Surely "varied" means people chose to handicap themselves and not take Nymanda. As one of the absolute ultimate toolbox lists. In terms of dealing with the vagaries of swiss/cut matchups.

Also, there must have been some element of "not caring." Numbers at UK Nationals in mid August were down from last year.

I don't know about US Nationals (Nova) which happened 1-2 weeks after, and normally i would have instantly tried to find out that sort of thing.

US nationals attendance was down: ~95 per day this year, as opposed to the cap of `120 per day last year. So down ~25%.

3 minutes ago, Darth Seridur said:

Surely "varied" means people chose to handicap themselves and not take Nymanda. As one of the absolute ultimate toolbox lists. In terms of dealing with the vagaries of swiss/cut matchups.

Also, there must have been some element of "not caring." Numbers at UK Nationals in mid August were down from last year.

I don't know about US Nationals (Nova) which happened 1-2 weeks after, and normally i would have instantly tried to find out that sort of thing.

It also really never had time to settle and (as with any new wave) the game had more pilots/upgrades etc... than at nay other time so it should be more varied just by that fact. I think if 2.0 hadn’t been announced we'd have a settled meta by now in 14 and probably wouldn’t be all that varied, but who knows.

25 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

US nationals attendance was down: ~95 per day this year, as opposed to the cap of `120 per day last year. So down ~25%.

Sounds about right.

I remember they capped UK Nats 2017 at the max for 6rds which is 288. This year was about ~60 Day1, 180ish day 2.

How can I improve this list ("2nd Edition" content only)?

Vader's Trainees (192)
Darth Vader — TIE Advanced	70
Supernatural Reflexes	12
Fire-Control System	3
Afterburners	8
Ship Total: 93
 	
"Wampa" — TIE Fighter	30
Ship Total: 30
 	
Academy Pilot — TIE Fighter	23
Ship Total: 23
 	
Academy Pilot — TIE Fighter	23
Ship Total: 23
 	
Academy Pilot — TIE Fighter	23
Ship Total: 23
 	

I really don't see a way unless you need a deeper bid.

2 hours ago, AlexW said:

First step is admitting it.

I agree

On 9/21/2018 at 6:22 PM, Biophysical said:

MUH UPSILON! Fight me!

Seriously, though, pre-LWF Quickdraw was still a grade A asskicker.

I included them because despite my feelings that Intel agent + coordinate broke the game harder than anything has ever done before, they weren't really a meta force. I agree with you, at least on upsilons.

Where do we think the Average Ship Count per List for the Extended format meta settles before the first point adjustment?

• 3
• 4
• 5

My heart wants to say 5...because I can't stop using Tie Strikers and I think the more arcs that are on the table the better the game itself is.

But my reasonably complete understanding of the 1.0 player's preferred play style preference suggests 2-3, preferably 1 ship if the upgrades would let them.

Which means alot of low ship count 2.0 lists might perform better than would be expected if they were instead facing everything thats actually available to use considering how cheap ships are in general.

Will Top 4 results from 4-5+ ship lists be enough to convince the masses that they really preferred more than 2-3 ships this entire time?

Or will that only happen if the list involves individual ships that are difficult to destroy in 1 round?

Also...I have never enjoyed this game more than I am enjoying it right now.

Worth repeating. 2.0 is great.

5 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Where do we think the Average Ship Count per List for the Extended format meta settles before the first point adjustment?

• 3
• 4
• 5

My heart wants to say 5...because I can't stop using Tie Strikers and I think the more arcs that are on the table the better the game itself is.

But my reasonably complete understanding of the 1.0 player's preferred play style preference suggests 2-3, preferably 1 ship if the upgrades would let them.

Which means alot of 2.0 lists might perform better than would be expected looking at everything thats actually available to use and how cheap ships are in general.

Will Top 4 results from 4-5+ ship lists be enough to convince the masses that they really preferred more than 2-3 ships this entire time?

Or will that only happen if the list involves individual ships that are difficult to destroy in 1 round?

4. I see Rebels at mostly 4, Scum at mostly 3, Empire at mostly 4-5.

3 minutes ago, gennataos said:

4. I see Rebels at mostly 4, Scum at mostly 3, Empire at mostly 4-5.

So is 4 enough to scare 3 ship lists?

5 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

So is 4 enough to scare 3 ship lists?

In general, no.

14 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

In general, no.

Right so if average is 4...then people would generally feel comfortable taking a 3 ship or even 2 ship list to a tournament?

The "5+ ship is hard" mindset is bizarre and a contributing factor to what the meta will end up looking like. At least the swiss meta if thats even a term. Why do people think swarms are hard? Is it because they have to put templates down a couple more times per game? Half the time the ships dont even go different directions and just move as one ship. Arguably its easier with 5+ ships to do what the bad x-wing player wants to do...which is just joust. I know what they really want to do is joust with 1 ship and not take damage. But lets assume thats not possible for the time being outside of Norra, Boba, Luke, and I guess re-enforced stuff? (*They all definitely still take damage...)

As someone who has spent a lot of time running 5 and 6 ship lists, I would say two main things make the lists unappealing:

Mental burden: flying a swarm in formation is not a big deal, but once you hit the “parking lot” stage of the game, the spatial reasoning burden goes way up. In individual games, this isnt a big deal, but in a tournament, the fatigue differential between list archetypes becomes pronounced.

Reduced capabilities: this is the real issue with high ship-count lists - as you add ships, you (should) gain efficiency, but each individual piece of the list becomes less and less capable in isolation. This means that you end up with much narrower win conditions and it’s much easier to end up in situations where you have essentially no path out of a losing game state.

More ships just keeps making Boba stronger too, right? Just tying it back to earlier discussion. I think I’m an outlier that has a strong preference for five or six ships non-formation.