10 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

What makes it interesting is that the pre-engagement decisions are just as connected to the list I bring as they are to the list my opponent puts on the table. 2.0 makes me feel like I have a slightly different pre combat puzzle to solve from one game to the next. Where in 1.0 i was often just solving an alpha strike puzzle, a range bubble, or a decision not to engage at all last year in both competitive and casual play.

I prefer the "uh oh, how do I pull this off now?" puzzles myself.

Just now, drjkel said:

I prefer the "uh oh, how do I pull this off now?" puzzles myself.

Yea the mad scramble phase. It good to. I just feel more obviously bad at the part before that so it interests me more.

10 minutes ago, drjkel said:

I prefer the "uh oh, how do I pull this off now?" puzzles myself.

My issue is that I like this challenge to the point where I have neglected developing the turn 0/early game strategies to avoid these puzzles

1 hour ago, Transmogrifier said:

My issue is that I like this challenge to the point where I have neglected developing the turn 0/early game strategies to avoid these puzzles

As long as you're having fun, you're doing it right.

I had fun getting a runner up a my first regional with parattani and was still having fun 14 hours later. That first game was my 5th time running it, and I spent the whole day trying new setups and openings against a meta gauntlet (which is not our normal meta). Solving the puzzle of how to make it even better was fun.

When I set it down at Naboo for my first game, my brain just went "oh, I've solved this puzzle, bored now" and the games went accordingly. I should have gone with my hangar bay Vader, whisper, and a Kylo bomber instead. I'd never flown any of those ships, it'd have been more fun, to me.

So regarding what is legal for tournaments, I see communities going one of several ways:

1: 2.0 only: this community is likely going to grow, as new players can compete without buying all the stuff.

2a: Extended, resistant to change: This community is likely going to go underground eventually, as new players are turned off by the barrier to entry.

2b: Extended, easily changed: This community is likely going to stop doing extended tournaments only soon after numbers start declining, and become (1).

3: X-wing dead game: this community is present mostly in the back of game stores, and it going to have to fight to preserve the game. going with 2 is tempting, as it is likely to bring back a lot of old players, but as 2 is a trap, it may only kill the community. However, as they don't see the new players right now whatever FFG does is likely to become the eventual result, unless someone locally makes a lot of prize support for 2.0 only.

Probably more, but I'll interrupt whatever conversation is happening then to add them, don't worry.

2 hours ago, Do I need a Username said:

So regarding what is legal for tournaments, I see communities going one of several ways:

1: 2.0 only: this community is likely going to grow, as new players can compete without buying all the stuff.

2a: Extended, resistant to change: This community is likely going to go underground eventually, as new players are turned off by the barrier to entry.

2b: Extended, easily changed: This community is likely going to stop doing extended tournaments only soon after numbers start declining, and become (1).

3: X-wing dead game: this community is present mostly in the back of game stores, and it going to have to fight to preserve the game. going with 2 is tempting, as it is likely to bring back a lot of old players, but as 2 is a trap, it may only kill the community. However, as they don't see the new players right now whatever FFG does is likely to become the eventual result, unless someone locally makes a lot of prize support for 2.0 only.

Probably more, but I'll interrupt whatever conversation is happening then to add them, don't worry.

I think you are making it sound way more dramatic than it is.

One if the great things in 2.0 is that you can compete with pretty much any ships, even with just Wave 0+1. For example 3 or 4 X-wings are super solid, as is Boba and Fangs.

So your beginner players will have plenty of game even in Extended format environment.

Also I recommend to go super casual about proxying cards (as we do), which gives new players easy way how to open up options..

3 hours ago, Do I need a Username said:

So regarding what is legal for tournaments, I see communities going one of several ways:

1: 2.0 only: this community is likely going to grow, as new players can compete without buying all the stuff.

2a: Extended, resistant to change: This community is likely going to go underground eventually, as new players are turned off by the barrier to entry.

2b: Extended, easily changed: This community is likely going to stop doing extended tournaments only soon after numbers start declining, and become (1).

3: X-wing dead game: this community is present mostly in the back of game stores, and it going to have to fight to preserve the game. going with 2 is tempting, as it is likely to bring back a lot of old players, but as 2 is a trap, it may only kill the community. However, as they don't see the new players right now whatever FFG does is likely to become the eventual result, unless someone locally makes a lot of prize support for 2.0 only.

Probably more, but I'll interrupt whatever conversation is happening then to add them, don't worry.

You aren't acknowledging that, without extended being the tournament format, many hardcore tournament goers, who have spent or are going to spend more than 200 bucks to buy conversion kits, would be incredibly pissed off by FFG.

I think not starting 2.0 with Extended as the main format would be more harmful to player retention than the few new players Second Edition could theoretically bring.

Anyway I expect that within 6 months there will be plenty of ships reprinted in 2nd edition and this whole format discussion will become moot..

Until then each community should just do what is best for them. Some mix of Extended and 2nd edition formats sound like a sweet spot.

And there are also other ways how to support new players. For example I’m planning to collect all my extra cards from the 4 conversion kits I bought and give them away to new players.

3 hours ago, baranidlo said:

Also I recommend to go super casual about proxying cards (as we do), which gives new players easy way how to open up options..

Absolutely on this for kits and casual stuff. Heck, I've got extra 2.0 damage decks specifically to loan out if required.

5 hours ago, Sunitsa said:

You aren't acknowledging that, without extended being the tournament format, many hardcore tournament goers, who have spent or are going to spend more than 200 bucks to buy conversion kits, would be incredibly pissed off by FFG.

I think not starting 2.0 with Extended as the main format would be more harmful to player retention than the few new players Second Edition could theoretically bring.

I think this is naive:

hardcore games are far more motivated by winning than the $ they spent. Gamers have $.

Further, player churn is real, regardless of how good 2.0 is. Ignoring new players is expicitly a bad business model (see Wizards of the Coast; rotation, etc).

The game was dying under 1.0. It is demonstrable.

8 hours ago, Do I need a Username said:

So regarding what is legal for tournaments, I see communities going one of several ways:

1: 2.0 only: this community is likely going to grow, as new players can compete without buying all the stuff.

2a: Extended, resistant to change: This community is likely going to go underground eventually, as new players are turned off by the barrier to entry.

2b: Extended, easily changed: This community is likely going to stop doing extended tournaments only soon after numbers start declining, and become (1).

3: X-wing dead game: this community is present mostly in the back of game stores, and it going to have to fight to preserve the game. going with 2 is tempting, as it is likely to bring back a lot of old players, but as 2 is a trap, it may only kill the community. However, as they don't see the new players right now whatever FFG does is likely to become the eventual result, unless someone locally makes a lot of prize support for 2.0 only.

Probably more, but I'll interrupt whatever conversation is happening then to add them, don't worry.

Like, the real answer is that stores can rotate and do both: if they do monthly tournaments, start with 2.0, then say next week is extended, and then do 2.0... etc.

The question still hinges around what FFG will do about hyperspace cups in March... but that's all the way in March, and so they don't (and won't) say anything until it's closer.

6 hours ago, baranidlo said:

I think you are making it sound way more dramatic than it is.

One if the great things in 2.0 is that you can compete with pretty much any ships, even with just Wave 0+1. For example 3 or 4 X-wings are super solid, as is Boba and Fangs.

So your beginner players will have plenty of game even in Extended format environment.

Also I recommend to go super casual about proxying cards (as we do), which gives new players easy way how to open up options..

I think that's far less true than you think.

The only lists/ships that seem to survive and be played in extended are:
Luke pilot

Norra Pilot (MAYBE)

TIE Fighters (swarms)

Fangs
Firesprays

So, basically, scum.

*Barring massive points changes, that is.

2 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

Like, the real answer is that stores can rotate and do both: if they do monthly tournaments, start with 2.0, then say next week is extended, and then do 2.0... etc.

^ I'm getting our LGS to do this ^

This week is extended, next week will be 2nd edition, and alternate until something changes.

Just now, RStan said:

^ I'm getting our LGS to do this ^

This week is extended, next week will be 2nd edition, and alternate until something changes.

Honestly, this seems pretty perfect (to me).

7 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

I think that's far less true than you think.

The only lists/ships that seem to survive and be played in extended are:
Luke pilot

Norra Pilot (MAYBE)

TIE Fighters (swarms)

Fangs
Firesprays

So, basically, scum.

And Vader and Scum Han.

Which together with your list is basically all the ships from 2nd edition? (Except the Uwing)

So I guess thanks for proving my point?

1 minute ago, baranidlo said:

And Vader and Scum Han.

Which together with your list is basically all the ships from 2nd edition? (Except the Uwing)

So I guess thanks for proving my point?

So:
just vader, just luke, MAYBE norra.

I SUUUUUUUUUUPER disagree on scum han

And fangs and firesprays (and specifically tie swarms).

I think we disagree.

Random thoughts...

Imperial:

• Howl/Iden + 7 ACD
• Howl/Iden + Del/Wampa/Seyn + 1 ACD
• Jonus + 3 Scimitars + ( Lambda/Punisher/Ace )
• RAC + Vader
• Sloane Mini Swarm ( Whisper or Lambda )
• Trip Ace
• Whisper/Lambda + 2 Things
• Whisper/Rex + Something
• Whisper/Vader + Something
• Trajectory Sim Spam
• Ion Turret Spam
• Good Double Ace + Support Placeholder (Sai probably?)

Scum:

• IG88A + Boba Probably + Something
• Boba + Han + Something
• 2-3 Fang Fighters + Something
• 7 Quadjumpers
• Drea + 6 Z95s or ( 4 Zs + 2 Quads )
• Trip Ace
• Genius Nym List Placeholder
• Ion Turret Spam
• Good Big Base Turret List Placeholder (Assaj probably?)

Rebels:

• Super Luke + Norra + Kyle
• 4 Ship No Box: Super Luke + Sabine + Norra/Warden + Blount
• 6 Homing A-Wings
• Z95 Swarm
• X-Wing, B-Wing, or U-Wing "Swarm"
• Ion Turret Spam
• Good Big Base Turret List Placeholder (Kanan or Low Fat Han probably?)
• That one guy who eventually gets Dash or Leebo to work

Anything significant I left out?

@Boom Owl No Defenders? Or are you not convinced by them enough and they go in the "something" category?

2 minutes ago, RStan said:

@Boom Owl No Defenders? Or are you not convinced by them enough and they go in the "something" category?

Whisper/Rex + Something

Thats the one I think the defender player will use since the masses dont believe Advanced Sensors is good.

31 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

I think this is naive:

hardcore games are far more motivated by winning than the $ they spent. Gamers have $.

Further, player churn is real, regardless of how good 2.0 is. Ignoring new players is expicitly a bad business model (see Wizards of the Coast; rotation, etc).

I'm not making a case about money but about broken trust. If FFG release products for 200 € advertising it as conversion kit just to have none of that tournament legal would definitely piss off many players, regardless of their economic status

31 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

The game was dying under 1.0. It is demonstrable.

And I never claimed it wasn't (despite personally still enjoying 1.0 a lot and considering wave 14 one of the funniest and widest meta ever).

I know something should be done for player retention, but not having extended as the main tournament format, will definitely work against this goal.

You use wizards as example and they perfectly understood the issue of keeping your own hardcore playerbase happy: they did the reserve list back in their early days. Without it, which kept intact the customers trust, it's unlikely wotc would be where they are

19 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

So:
just vader, just luke, MAYBE norra.

I SUUUUUUUUUUPER disagree on scum han

And fangs and firesprays (and specifically tie swarms).

I think we disagree.

So we have agreed that 6 out of 9 ships in 2nd ed are very playable in Extended.

Personally I would extend it to 8/9 (+Han +Reaper).

Yes, the number of possible builds is super low in 2nd ed, but that’s because there are literally only 3 ships for every faction.

Looking at @Boom Owl‘s list, there are like 2 builds for each faction which you can construct using 2nd Ed ships.

(Some proxying or borrowing cards might be needed.)

3 minutes ago, baranidlo said:

Looking at @Boom Owl‘s list, there are like 2 builds for each faction which you can construct using 2nd Ed ships.

Right but there is an extremely good chance my list above is wrong. (*Also why i posted it here)

8 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Whisper/Rex + Something

Thats the one I think the defender player will use since the masses dont believe Advanced Sensors is good.

Derp, my brain didn't register "Rex" = Rexlar.

Also do you consider Scum "Trip Ace" to still contain 4LOM, Fenn & Palob or Teroch? 4LOM + 2 ace could potentially become it's own major archetype, it's scary.

Has anyone tried to recreate one of the latest 1.0 horror aka 100 point rebel ace?

Because fenn+lowrick+ superluke (with Torpedoes and regen too) looks promising on paper...

@Boom Owlthe scum core of palob+adv. Sensor 4lom is definitely worth to be in that list with a + something

1 minute ago, Sunitsa said:

I'm not making a case about money but about broken trust. If FFG release products for 200 € advertising it as conversion kit just to have none of that tournament legal would definitely piss off many players, regardless of their economic status

And I never claimed it wasn't (despite personally still enjoying 1.0 a lot and considering wave 14 one of the funniest and widest meta ever).

I know something should be done for player retention, but not having extended as the main tournament format, will definitely work against this goal.

You use wizards as example and they perfectly understood the issue of keeping your own hardcore playerbase happy: they did the reserve list back in their early days. Without it, which kept intact the customers trust, it's unlikely wotc would be where they are

The conversion kits are they to save veterans $ on rereleases - not inherently to promise all ships can be played all the time, forever.

Also, the reserve list was then ROTATED OUT of standard format. Standard format is just the newest things, precisely to allow new players entry points. The main format of magic is standard (new player entry).

1 minute ago, baranidlo said:

So we have agreed that 6 out of 9 ships in 2nd ed are very playable in Extended.

Personally I would extend it to 8/9 (+Han +Reaper).

Yes, the number of possible builds is super low in 2nd ed, but that’s because there are literally only 3 ships for every faction.

Looking at @Boom Owl‘s list, there are like 2 builds for each faction which you can construct using 2nd Ed ships.

(Some proxying or borrowing cards might be needed.)

A single pilot being playable/good out of all x-wings and y-wings does not mean the "ship" is 'very playable' in extended - it means that pilot is.

x-wings and advanced are pure garbage (at their price)*, and the force points save two pilots.

Basically, all of rebel wave 1 is bad.

The moment you compare a reaper to the new lamda, it becomes increasingly hard to bring a reaper. You CAN, you're ALLOWED, but it doesn't appear you SHOULD.

*all analysis implicitly has the disclaimer "at their current price"