3 minutes ago, Brunas said:

Truly one of life's greatest questions

Haha, seriously though.

I‘d say it‘s discovered: a set of cards has one wincondition, and if you invent a different one you‘re just wrong.

My win condition is to kill more than my opponent. Worked out so far.

40 minutes ago, punkUser said:

Definitely play with it based on your own assumptions, but adding tokens fundamentally requires meta-dependent assumptions that aren't necessarily appropriate or easy to make before the game is even released...

which is why i didn't want to run the math. There's not a lot of point arguing about how much better the focus token is unless you have a sense of the meta and the average number/quality of shot coming in, 5 3die focus coming in the same round is probably an edge case? We can safely say that that focus token will have an effect though. Other intangibles: the number of large bases b-wings have to k-turn over. How 'fast' are the ships b-wings have to hunt down. Is there a heavy stress/blocking/bomb meta that lets the b-wings base durability and linked actions win out?

basically, generic bs and xs are pretty comparable and barring named pilots or price changes, the meta twisting one way or another should clue which way you should be leaning.

also, even if they don't look great against the field, its nice to see that they got x wings and b wings roughly balanced compared to each other.

10 minutes ago, jagsba said:

which is why i didn't want to run the math. There's not a lot of point arguing about how much better the focus token is unless you have a sense of the meta and the average number/quality of shot coming in, 5 3die focus coming in the same round is probably an edge case?

Maybe, but ironically I did 6 to a bunch of people yesterday pretty consistently with 5x strikers/interceptors + wampa And of course 2 dice howl+focus is not terribly dissimilar in terms of potency vs. many defenders.

10 minutes ago, jagsba said:

We can safely say that that focus token will have an effect though. Other intangibles: the number of large bases b-wings have to k-turn over. How 'fast' are the ships b-wings have to hunt down. Is there a heavy stress/blocking/bomb meta that lets the b-wings base durability and linked actions win out?

Absolutely. Don't get me wrong, I definitely don't encourage people to over-generalize these results... indeed that's specifically why there's no way to set tokens on the ship durability form. The simulation can handle whatever arbitrary combination of tokens just fine, but it would encourage people to misinterpret or overgeneralize results more. By forcing them to set up the specific cases on the regular calculator it hopefully makes them realize the assumptions they are making, and thus the generality (or lack thereof) of the results.

All that said, in a decent number of cases the details only have a minor effect on the take-away point. For instance as I showed you with focus, while it does predictably skew things slightly, it doesn't actually change or invalidate the overall conclusion that B's are generally more resilient to 3 dice focus attacks than X's, particularly at the critical points in the curve. So while trying to distill all those cases down to a single number (and indeed generalize it to other kinds of attacks) in not a goal here, knowing the interval/bounds of the math gives the relevant information and the limitations.

Indeed remember that this discussion started as a counter to the assertion that X's are *always* better than B's in 2.0. Certainly the two are a lot closer than they were in 1.0, but I think @Brunas noting that there are still (common!) situations in which B's are noticeably more durable is worthwhile in the face of that claim.

10 minutes ago, jagsba said:

basically, generic bs and xs are pretty comparable and barring named pilots or price changes, the meta twisting one way or another should clue which way you should be leaning.

Agreed, and that's what I think the consensus here has been. The math has been to support that

Okay, what do the rebels have that hasn’t been covered yet?

-Z-95: cheapest homing missile slot in the game

-Ezra TIE: Sense at 38 points

-Double VCX and Arc Norra with Lando (I hope time limits don’t go to 60 minutes)

-muh theme!

Im not cheering Zack up, am I?

After a good bit of testing now, I've come down pretty firmly in the camp of Advanced Sensors for TIE Defenders. I'm also pretty confident that I can never use Advanced Sensors in a game and it's 100% okay.

It's basically 8 points of "best move" insurance. Is this weird? Paying 8 points for an upgrade that's only there to say "eff you for trying to block me". It still feels right, though. I actually have Defender lists with big chunks of un-spoken-for points where I could pay a good bit more for Advanced Sensors. I know it's not Supernatural Reflexes levels of power, as it eats your action efficiency hard on a Defender, but it still seems the best option in most Defender builds unless 2 ship lists become a thing, and that seems reaaaaally unlikely right now.

So I haven't given this a ton of thought but more just interested in continuing to talk about the topic...

What are the "single ship end game pilots" by faction in 2.0? The list below is maybe bad. Correct me.

Rebels

• Norra
• Corran
• Luke
• Hera/Kanan?
• Han?
• Leebo?

Empire

• Vader
• Defenders
• Whisper
• Quiz?
• Soontir?
• RAC?
• Redline?

Scum

• Fenn
• Guri
• Aggressors
• Boba
• Assaj?

First Order

• Kylo
• Kylo
• Kylo
• Kylo
• Kylo
• Kylo
• Kylo
• Kylo
• Kylo
• Kylo
• Ren

Doesn't look like trying to make a 200 pt ace work is a good idea outside of Luke or Vader or Boba now which is encouraging. Maybe Whisper or Corran or Quiz in certain cases. Can single big ships be your end game if re-enforce is as good as advertised or are they just a sacrifice? I find that I am deferring with Scum/Imperials to looking for ways to fit 2 potential end game ships into a list with multiple ships supporting them. Since thats a thing you can do i guess.

9 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Doesn't look like trying to make a 200 pt ace work is a good idea outside of Luke or Vader or Boba now which is encouraging. Maybe Whisper or Corran or Quiz in certain cases. Can single big ships be your win condition if re-enforce is as good as advertised? I find that I am deferring with Scum/Imperials to just looking for ways to fit 2 potential end game ships into a list with multiple ships supporting them.

I have to think Luke never really hits Vader Levels of points, and Boba seems more in the “slow clock” than dodge forever camp.

Just like if you want to joust play TIE Swarm (probably), if you want to win on points at time you should probably bring Vader?

What other win conditions have probable dominant strategies? Should I look at five alphas and Wampa if final salvo forts are still a thing? Can anyone beat 17 red?

The punisher can bomb reload three bank every turn, are there any reloading ships that can kite harder?

As good as Punishers are, I don't think they're win conditions. They take damage easily if hit, and theure damage drops a lot if the torpedo tubes are empty. Like, Vader probably takes his points in TIE Fighters. Redline probably doesn't. They spread arcs and get 1-2 shots per turn, and he doesn't last all that long. This assumes he's got no extra Torpedo charges, and has to reload to get ordnance shots or drops, which I think is the likely late game scenario.

9 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

As good as Punishers are, I don't think they're win conditions. They take damage easily if hit, and theure damage drops a lot if the torpedo tubes are empty. Like, Vader probably takes his points in TIE Fighters. Redline probably doesn't. They spread arcs and get 1-2 shots per turn, and he doesn't last all that long. This assumes he's got no extra Torpedo charges, and has to reload to get ordnance shots or drops, which I think is the likely late game scenario.

Yea agree, i was specifically considering advanced sensors redline there and that he can be a terror against a decent couple of things with just that and torps.

1 hour ago, Biophysical said:

After a good bit of testing now, I've come down pretty firmly in the camp of Advanced Sensors for TIE Defenders. I'm also pretty confident that I can never use Advanced Sensors in a game and it's 100% okay.

Yup I came to the same conclusion despite the initial "but it doesn't work with the free evade" reaction. The threat of it is too high and gives your opponent very few good options. Even just the ability to grab a focus or evade before bumping something is fantastic, especially on folks like Rexlar.

Definitely it and Juke are stapled to any named defenders I run.

10 hours ago, Biophysical said:

After a good bit of testing now, I've come down pretty firmly in the camp of Advanced Sensors for TIE Defenders. I'm also pretty confident that I can never use Advanced Sensors in a game and it's 100% okay.

It's basically 8 points of "best move" insurance. Is this weird? Paying 8 points for an upgrade that's only there to say "eff you for trying to block me". It still feels right, though. I actually have Defender lists with big chunks of un-spoken-for points where I could pay a good bit more for Advanced Sensors. I know it's not Supernatural Reflexes levels of power, as it eats your action efficiency hard on a Defender, but it still seems the best option in most Defender builds unless 2 ship lists become a thing, and that seems reaaaaally unlikely right now.

Your defender play is swinging me toward Rexler over Vader. Rexler can survive a lot more mistakes than Vader and seems to provide the same amount of "where's he going to be" type of frustration. Plus, Rexler's ability seems to trigger a LOT and with the new damage deck, that can be terrifying.

10 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

What are the "single ship end game pilots" by faction in 2.0? The list below is maybe bad. Correct me.

I'm trying to figure out what an end game ship even means in 2.0.

1 hour ago, gennataos said:

I'm trying to figure out what an end game ship even means in 2.0

Me to.

18 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Me to.

I guess it's kind of the same as 1.0, but I don't have faith that "run/dodge for time" is necessarily still viable for a lot of ships. That's probably just wishful thinking on my part, though.

22 minutes ago, gennataos said:

I guess it's kind of the same as 1.0, but I don't have faith that "run/dodge for time" is necessarily still viable for a lot of ships. That's probably just wishful thinking on my part, though.

It's probably viable for fewer ships than it was in 1.0, but those ships might rise to fill the void. At the very least, there will be fewer fleeing infinite regenerating fire in all directions ships running for time.

8 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

It's probably viable for fewer ships than it was in 1.0, but those ships might rise to fill the void. At the very least, there will be fewer fleeing infinite regenerating fire in all directions ships running for time.

If the meta (d)evolves into getting our Supernatural/Advanced Sensors aces to the end game, maybe the early/middle game will be interesting, but those end games will be a chore.

12 hours ago, Biophysical said:

After a good bit of testing now, I've come down pretty firmly in the camp of Advanced Sensors for TIE Defenders. I'm also pretty confident that I can never use Advanced Sensors in a game and it's 100% okay.

It's basically 8 points of "best move" insurance. Is this weird? Paying 8 points for an upgrade that's only there to say "eff you for trying to block me". It still feels right, though. I actually have Defender lists with big chunks of un-spoken-for points where I could pay a good bit more for Advanced Sensors. I know it's not Supernatural Reflexes levels of power, as it eats your action efficiency hard on a Defender, but it still seems the best option in most Defender builds unless 2 ship lists become a thing, and that seems reaaaaally unlikely right now.

2 minutes ago, gennataos said:

If the meta (d)evolves into getting our Supernatural/Advanced Sensors aces to the end game, maybe the early/middle game will be interesting, but those end games will be a chore.

Hi!

Just now, Tlfj200 said:

Hi!

Lol, I edited you out because the context in which I tagged you wasn't necessarily accurate.

But, Hi!

Just now, gennataos said:

Lol, I edited you out because the context in which I tagged you wasn't necessarily accurate.

But, Hi!

No, it felt pretty accurate.

I agree.

12 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

So I haven't given this a ton of thought but more just interested in continuing to talk about the topic...

What are the "single ship end game pilots" by faction in 2.0? The list below is maybe bad. Correct me.

If you can get Dutchess there she can do nutty things as each move on her dial effectively becomes 4 options

13 minutes ago, comawhite said:

If you can get Dutchess there she can do nutty things as each move on her dial effectively becomes 4 options

Full health countdown against 1 or 2 ships is still pretty nasty to. Gets better as more ships disappear.

I hate having to choose between Rexler and Vader. Why can't I have both (in a list that's not just the two of them)? #ImperialPlayerProblems

15 minutes ago, defkhan1 said:

I hate having to choose between Rexler and Vader. Why can't I have both (in a list that's not just the two of them)? #ImperialPlayerProblems

No one has sympathy for you.

17 minutes ago, defkhan1 said:

I hate having to choose between Rexler and Vader. Why can't I have both (in a list that's not just the two of them)? #ImperialPlayerProblems

Its so frustrating having so many solid choices.