To clarify further - it's not that they're bad or unusable: people will do fine with them. It's just usually there was a better choice somewhere, or in another faction, for what the list was trying to do.

3 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

To clarify further - it's not that they're bad or unusable: people will do fine with them. It's just usually there was a better choice somewhere, or in another faction, for what the list was trying to do.

I'll contend that you're corrextcif you're trying to make a squad that's the best at one thing. I think the overal drop in capabilities in 2.0 means the squads that are best at one thing probably won't also be very good at 2-3 other facets of the game. I think X-wing based squads will be worse than what a specialist squad is good at, but better at most everything else.

They have some defense against massed attacks. They're fast enough to effectively flank and redeploy. They are solid blockers. They can soak some spike or auto damage. They have quality attacks, but are cheap enough to have a good number of them. They can go fast, they can go slow.

2 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

I'll contend that you're corrextcif you're trying to make a squad that's the best at one thing. I think the overal drop in capabilities in 2.0 means the squads that are best at one thing probably won't also be very good at 2-3 other facets of the game. I think X-wing based squads will be worse than what a specialist squad is good at, but better at most everything else.

They have some defense against massed attacks. They're fast enough to effectively flank and redeploy. They are solid blockers. They can soak some spike or auto damage. They have quality attacks, but are cheap enough to have a good number of them. They can go fast, they can go slow.

I'm not sure it's toolbox-y enough to be an actual win condition.

Building a list without a win condition in mind it probably incorrect.

Old rebel toolbox lists basically brought a little bit of everything in 1.0: stress control, damage mitigation, decent shots, and eventually bombs.

X-wings are just medium meat shields that are fast. That's fine as a filler in some cases if you already built a list with a win condition in rebels, but it's not a list in and of itself.

2 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

I'm not sure it's toolbox-y enough to be an actual win condition.

Building a list without a win condition in mind it probably incorrect.

Old rebel toolbox lists basically brought a little bit of everything in 1.0: stress control, damage mitigation, decent shots, and eventually bombs.

X-wings are just medium meat shields that are fast. That's fine as a filler in some cases if you already built a list with a win condition in rebels, but it's not a list in and of itself.

I mean, it's a damage dealing list. The win condition is to kill stuff, it just has multiple ways of going about it, depending on the strengths of the opposing list.

Maybe it's just that "fast meaty things" have been my bread and butter in this game.

1 hour ago, Biophysical said:

You think so? What do you think is going to beat up on X-wings? They seem solid and adaptable to me.

20 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

To clarify further - it's not that they're bad or unusable: people will do fine with them. It's just usually there was a better choice somewhere, or in another faction, for what the list was trying to do.

This, basically. Outside of Luke/Biggs, who are not XWings but amazing pilots who happen to be in an xwing, for the same price point, you get these which are all strictly better than an X-Wing:

Scum: Fangs

Imperial: Phantoms

Rebel: Debris Gambit Sabine

There's only reason to bring a generic X in your list is if you already have gambit sabine, and need 81 points of filler, which seems like a bad list to be frank.

11 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

I'll contend that you're corrextcif you're trying to make a squad that's the best at one thing. I think the overal drop in capabilities in 2.0 means the squads that are best at one thing probably won't also be very good at 2-3 other facets of the game. I think X-wing based squads will be worse than what a specialist squad is good at, but better at most everything else.

They have some defense against massed attacks. They're fast enough to effectively flank and redeploy. They are solid blockers. They can soak some spike or auto damage. They have quality attacks, but are cheap enough to have a good number of them. They can go fast, they can go slow.

Still rejecting specialist definitions. I'm not bringing fangs over xwings because they're more "specialist", I'm bringing them because for the price which is almost identical, they are a dramatically better chassis.

X-Wings lack:

• Good price for their statline
• Meaningful linked actions to make up for it
• Meaningful ship ability to make up for it

They have two (amazing) pilots. Taking anything other than Biggs or Luke is likely a huge mistake.

30 minutes ago, Brunas said:

X-Wings lack:

• Good price for their statline
• Meaningful linked actions to make up for it
• Meaningful ship ability to make up for it 

Actually, it's pretty much 1.0 X-Wings prior to the real wildness after Jumpmasters and Miranda catching fire. Yeah, you can use them, but unless you're taking Biggs you're likely doing it wrong.

Now, because players are more likely to be faction locked in 2.0 (seven factions is a bit much to buy everything) it becomes something Rebel players may have to adjust to and well... 'git gud' with. Outside Sabine, what else is there that can fill the role? You can only play one of her. Maybe we see some players adjust and fly smarter 'formations' to net opposing lists, or we'll just see bad players line up 3 X-Wings and joust everything.

Any one of those points you made @Brunas being adjusted could change this outlook, and we know prices are now on the observe and adjust list. The question is - are FFG willing to let 5 X-Wings on the board again? Or are they going to adjust other things 'up'?

5 minutes ago, Brunas said:

This, basically. Outside of Luke/Biggs, who are not XWings but amazing pilots who happen to be in an xwing, for the same price point, you get these which are all strictly better than an X-Wing:

Scum: Fangs

Imperial: Phantoms

Rebel: Debris Gambit Sabine

There's only reason to bring a generic X in your list is if you already have gambit sabine, and need 81 points of filler, which seems like a bad list to be frank.

Still rejecting specialist definitions. I'm not bringing fangs over xwings because they're more "specialist", I'm bringing them because for the price which is almost identical, they are a dramatically better chassis.

X-Wings lack:

• Good price for their statline
• Meaningful linked actions to make up for it
• Meaningful ship ability to make up for it

They have two (amazing) pilots. Taking anything other than Biggs or Luke is likely a huge mistake.

Fangs are more expensive and have two less hit points.

Phantoms are more expensive and lack Target Lock.

Sabine has two fewer hit points.

They're not strictly better, they're conditionally better.

I'm going to move the goal posts here, but we're also at the stage where we should not be making concrete pronouncements because 1.) The picture we have of the game is incomplete because enough stuff has changed and we're still subconsciously in 1.0 to s degree, and 2.) prices are subject to change.

From a 1.0 standpoint, you probably have more ground to stand on, because the prices at least would be stuck.

In 2.0, though, at this stage should play, even competitive play, with stuff theoretically less capable be discouraged? I'm thinking any competitive player will want to keep their hand on a ship that is less likely to get nerfed in the next update, just to keep options open.

Even if @Brunasand @Tlfj200 are correct, and I'm not sure they are, "this ship is bad, it won't win as much" is a much less meaningful statement right now compared to a year ago.

8 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

Fangs are more expensive and have two less hit points.

Phantoms are more expensive and lack Target Lock.

Sabine has two fewer hit points.

They're not strictly better, they're conditionally better.

If the prices change, I agree, but if we want to talk about any platform at any price point, then x-wings are fine, because everything is fine? I'm not sure that's a meaningful discussion.

Fangs are 3 points more expensive, and have the same amount of health if you get shot at range 1 twice over the course of the game, which you'd have to go out of your way to NOT do, even completely discounting the linked actions that make it trivial to always be at range 1. And they have an extra agility for their trouble, but honestly I'd be bringing fangs over X-Wings even if they were 2 agility.

Phantoms are the same price (43 vs 44) - there just isn't a <i3 option. Do generic X-Wings ever target lock, or make use of their munitions? I suspect the answer is no, with astromech and system being roughly equivalent with our limited knowledge.

Sabine has one fewer hit point (much like phantoms), and that's if she dies in the first turn of shooting. Every turn she's shot at and survives she gains another health, relative to X-Wings, which makes her dramatically more durable (completely ignoring how hard it is to catch her in arc).

8 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

Even if @Brunasand @Tlfj200 are correct, and I'm not sure they are, "this ship is bad, it won't win as much" is a much less meaningful statement right now compared to a year ago.

49 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

To clarify further - it's not that they're bad or unusable: people will do fine with them. It's just usually there was a better choice somewhere, or in another faction, for what the list was trying to do.

9 minutes ago, Brunas said:

Fangs are 3 points more expensive, and have the same amount of health if you get shot at range 1 twice over the course of the game, which you'd have to go out of your way to NOT do, even completely discounting the linked actions that make it trivial to always be at range 1. And they have an extra agility for their trouble, but honestly I'd be bringing fangs over X-Wings even if they were 2 agility.

Phantoms are the same price (43 vs 44) - there just isn't a <i3 option. Do generic X-Wings ever target lock, or make use of their munitions? I suspect the answer is no, with astromech and system being roughly equivalent with our limited knowledge.

Sabine has one fewer hit point (much like phantoms), and that's if she dies in the first turn of shooting. Every turn she's shot at and survives she gains another health, relative to X-Wings, which makes her dramatically more durable (completely ignoring how hard it is to catch her in arc).

I think at 4 hit points with no Autothrusters and a single focus for defense, it won't be uncommon at all for Fangs to die never having been shot at Range 1.

When I've played 4 generic X-wings in 1.0, I've definitely made use of the lock on disengagement turns to load an action for later, also on turns on a ship that I have high confidence successfully blocked to avoid shots.

Sabine is great (all these ships are great), but she's one ship.

X-wings also have the 1-straight over Fangs and Phantom which does mean something.

About X-Wings, in the context of full conversion kits, I don't think there's been enough of these ships put on tables to prove anything aside from isolated conjecture. I lean way more towards @Biophysical's side, but that is probably because I'm part of the same group developing our own isolated conjecture.

In the context of Wave 1, I think X-Wings are just fine, because I've seen them be just fine, first hand.

About @Tlfj200's original choice of two metas....I guess the ace meta. They both sound abysmal.

49 minutes ago, Brunas said:

Phantoms are the same price (43 vs 44) - there just isn't a <i3 option. Do generic X-Wings ever target lock, or make use of their munitions? I suspect the answer is no, with astromech and system being roughly equivalent with our limited knowledge.

I'm never ever wading into the rebel faction compared to it's peers conversation again ever, but low ps generics with the tagret lock action should be banking it with some regarularity and finding it useful on a game to game basis even without ordinance

37 minutes ago, gennataos said:

I guess the ace meta

Im not really sure which one i would prefer the more I think about it.

I havent played against a good turret ship that can also bomb besides Norra, so I might be underestimating how good those types of things will be. They appear heavily restricted right now.

RAC, Nym, and K-Wings, might change that soon but unlikely to be in large enough # of turret/bomb ships in one list to be hugely concerning.

Tragedy Sim Ordinance is good but its "solvable" on approach for the most part.

I have played with and against Super I6 Vader though and it seems like it will need to always be the "Luke Gunner Dash" of small base ships in terms of points to not cause serious issues over time.

Super I5 is incredible to on Luke or Grand Quiz...but inherently better balanced since there is such a huge variety of ships at I5 to work with at varying bids.

I think its really specifically Pre-Movement Reposition at I6 thats on my watch list. Not even just Super Natural. Anything at I6 that can double re-position should be frustratingly expensive or Soontir levels of oh **** I mad a mistake.

1 hour ago, Biophysical said:

I think at 4 hit points with no Autothrusters and a single focus for defense, it won't be uncommon at all for Fangs to die never having been shot at Range 1.

When I've played 4 generic X-wings in 1.0, I've definitely made use of the lock on disengagement turns to load an action for later, also on turns on a ship that I have high confidence successfully blocked to avoid shots.

Sabine is great (all these ships are great), but she's one ship.

X-wings also have the 1-straight over Fangs and Phantom which does mean something.

The block/lock I definitely believe in, good point. But, it sounds lilke you haven't tried fangs yet. 5 straight boost focus means you'll never be caught at range 3 (unless you want to be). They definitely do get shout outside of range 1, especially the lower initiative ones, but since they move an entire range 3 band by themself every turn it's hard to not get an engagement on your terms.

26 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Im not really sure which one i would prefer the more I think about it.

I havent played against a good turret ship that can also bomb besides Norra, so I might be underestimating how good those types of things will be. They appear heavily restricted right now.

RAC, Nym, and K-Wings, might change that soon but unlikely to be in large enough # of turret/bomb ships in one list to be hugely concerning.

Tragedy Sim Ordinance is good but its "solvable" on approach for the most part.

I have played with and against Super I6 Vader though and it seems like it will need to always be the "Luke Gunner Dash" of small base ships in terms of points to not cause serious issues over time.

Super I5 is incredible to on Luke or Grand Quiz...but inherently better balanced since there is such a huge variety of ships at I5 to work with at varying bids.

I think its really specifically Pre-Movement Reposition at I6 thats on my watch list. Not even just Super Natural. Anything at I6 that can double re-position should be frustratingly expensive or Soontir levels of oh **** I mad a mistake.

Locally, we're seeing double-digit bids for the likes of Fenn, Vader, Guri, etc. Like, we went straight to "under 193 or why bother?...might as well start at 189." No idea where that'll land.

8 minutes ago, gennataos said:

Locally, we're seeing double-digit bids for the likes of Fenn, Vader, Guri, etc. Like, we went straight to "under 193 or why bother?...might as well start at 189." No idea where that'll land.

Yeah, 189 is Vader Rexler with the mostly obvious choices and no frills. That seems like an important point for bidding?

what was the old rule, something like 5% and something is seriously undercosted?

4 minutes ago, AEIllingworth said:

Yeah, 189 is Vader Rexler with the mostly obvious choices and no frills. That seems like an important point for bidding?

what was the old rule, something like 5% and something is seriously undercosted?

I super don't believe a 189 point list that's not dengaroo.

2 minutes ago, Chumbalaya said:

I super don't believe a 189 point list that's not dengaroo.

That’s fair. I’ve only gotten one game so far, and it was 200 on either side. All of my guesses are based on list building in a vacuum.

7 minutes ago, Chumbalaya said:

I super don't believe a 189 point list that's not dengaroo.

I don't know, if my options are Vader moving last or a tie fighter, I'm taking Vader moving last.

There's some disconnect though, because I can't find any 177 point lists I'd actually play.

I unironically have lists at 192, and have eyed thinks I can toss out the airlock if needed.

7 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

I unironically have lists at 192, and have eyed thinks I can toss out the airlock if needed.

I'm finding the same thing. With most upgrades priced fairly, it's a lot easier to give them up for a bid when positioning is intrinsic to the ship instead of PTL.

40 minutes ago, Brunas said:

The block/lock I definitely believe in, good point. But, it sounds lilke you haven't tried fangs yet. 5 straight boost focus means you'll never be caught at range 3 (unless you want to be). They definitely do get shout outside of range 1, especially the lower initiative ones, but since they move an entire range 3 band by themself every turn it's hard to not get an engagement on your terms.

That's assuming you're jousting them head on, or you don't bump, or overshoot.

16 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

I unironically have lists at 192, and have eyed thinks I can toss out the airlock if needed.

Im operating between 188 and 196 in general.

There some things that seem pretty solid right around 190.

9 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Im operating between 188 and 196 in general.

There some things that seem pretty solid right around 190.

I think a side effect of the large bids is the general weakness in upgrade cards, there's nothing I really feel like I need to try and cram into my list or that a list can't do without. This is probably a feature but a side effect of it is that bidding is now easier

27 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

That's assuming you're jousting them head on, or you don't bump, or overshoot.

The Concorde dawn thingy doesn’t need you to be facing them anymore, it is like teroch’s trigger used to be. If you are defending and the attack is range one front quadrant, flip one die to evade. That means you can overcommit more than you used to, the overshoot doesn’t rek you as badly.

(Is there a present tense of rekt?)