56 minutes ago, Brunas said:

Is there a rebel ship people are excited for (other than Luke), period? HWKs?

Triple tail gunner ARCs!

I doubt it’s good, but it looks fun.

30 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

The outstanding fact to me is the correlation of those horrible dials with age in 1.0, as the attack shuttle or auzituck have superior dials. For rebels, EVERYTHING has a better dial than a B wing. I‘d rank the Ywing as second worst. ARC, HWK, Sheathipede are all better. Interestingly the HWK is the one ship who is older and got an upgrade.

And I'll agree this has been a pet peeve of mine as well. The ARC dial is just insulting to the newer (in universe) Rebel fighters. I'm not saying the B-Wing should have the WORST dial.

The Y-Wing got a big upgrade on it's dial - doubling the blue maneuvers over the old green. It's still poor, but it's much improved. The B-Wing got those moderate to useless 1 talon rolls... I'm counting very few cases where that's going to be tactically great. At least the X-Wing got a notable improvement to it's dial as well.

39 minutes ago, Brunas said:

well I went to bed early yesterday instead of recording, but today putting together a quick summary of ship comparisons cross factions which basically summarizes why I'm so out on rebels.

Is there a rebel ship people are excited for (other than Luke), period? HWKs?

Define excited...?

"Look at this cool stuff this can do"? Not a lot, not in comparison to Imps and Scum.

"I see enough here to counter what I'm going to see from Imps and Scum"? Yeah, I think there's enough there. Course, that doesn't mean I'll end up flying any Rebels competitively, but...whatever.

1 minute ago, GreenDragoon said:

I prefer a bad dial with red moves over the complete lack of moves. The newer ships have exactly that, and so does the upgraded HWK. No the Bwing truly is the odd one out. And I don‘t understand why.

Maybe because the named B-Wings want to be stressed?

1 minute ago, gennataos said:

Maybe because the named B-Wings want to be stressed?

Yep I just edited 5min ago. I understand it's a feature. But first, coming from playing so many highPS aces with great action economy getting intentional stress is revolting to me. And second, could have had red 3 turns, too. It doesn't matter much in the end, still bugs me though.

23 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

In my opinion, the Bwing has a particularly bad dial. Red 3banks are really bad, but at least red 3turns like the SF would be an addition that would give another option with a downside.

If it stresses the ship and pilot to go fast and turn 45°, what does going fast and turning 90° do? 2 stress? A stress and a damage? Are there any dials that have a red bank and also the corresponding hard turn? I assume red maneuvers are the pilot pushing the envelope; there shouldn’t be a harder push available.

2 minutes ago, skotothalamos said:

If it stresses the ship and pilot to go fast and turn 45°, what does going fast and turning 90° do? 2 stress? A stress and a damage? Are there any dials that have a red bank and also the corresponding hard turn? I assume red maneuvers are the pilot pushing the envelope; there shouldn’t be a harder push available.

Scurrg has/had red 3hard and red 3t-roll.

Does that count?

Just now, skotothalamos said:

If it stresses the ship and pilot to go fast and turn 45°, what does going fast and turning 90° do? 2 stress? A stress and a damage? Are there any dials that have a red bank and also the corresponding hard turn? I assume red maneuvers are the pilot pushing the envelope; there shouldn’t be a harder push available.

I mean, 7 ships have a blue right next to the red. If an additional bit of angling can be so much worse, can it not also be as bad? Besides, gameplay>fluff. It would be something new, too.

The lack of strong System or Cannon upgrades for B-Wings really makes me wonder what FFG envisions their role as? It feels like they need a configuration to add some functionality to make them have a reason to exist because currently they just are a slow X-Wing that has K-Turns/Tallon Rolls that are easier for large ships to block.

5 minutes ago, Transmogrifier said:

The lack of strong System or Cannon upgrades for B-Wings really makes me wonder what FFG envisions their role as? It feels like they need a configuration to add some functionality to make them have a reason to exist because currently they just are a slow X-Wing that has K-Turns/Tallon Rolls that are easier for large ships to block.

The two things I can think of:

Ten can advanced sensor target lock, then move red to get double mods (58pt). He can even go down to predator and get his reroll there.
Braylen would like a focus, so either also advanced sensors or some synergy jank. Cooler might be composure, but I heard that linked actions do not give stress if failed? Is that true?

Anyway, I would not play them at more than those 58pts.

Just now, GreenDragoon said:

The two things I can think of:

Ten can advanced sensor target lock, then move red to get double mods (58pt). He can even go down to predator and get his reroll there.
Braylen would like a focus, so either also advanced sensors or some synergy jank. Cooler might be composure, but I heard that linked actions do not give stress if failed? Is that true?

Anyway, I would not play them at more than those 58pts.

Yeah, failed red actions don't stress.

I guess my issue is that it feels like you aren't getting the full value out of advanced sensors since you're stuck at INI 4 on both pilots. Compare those 58 point builds to Redline with Adv. Sensors, Proton Torps at 61 points - he's getting a lot more value out of Adv. Sensors by getting above the crowded INI 4 and has a much better pilot ability, dial and statline for 3 points?!

1 minute ago, Transmogrifier said:

Yeah, failed red actions don't stress.

I guess my issue is that it feels like you aren't getting the full value out of advanced sensors since you're stuck at INI 4 on both pilots. Compare those 58 point builds to Redline with Adv. Sensors, Proton Torps at 61 points - he's getting a lot more value out of Adv. Sensors by getting above the crowded INI 4 and has a much better pilot ability, dial and statline for 3 points?!

Sure, but the advS would only be to get that double mod, not for the traditional use of reacting to other ships' movement.

As mentioned, Ten can take predator for the rerolls, and Braylen could rely on focus->BR to get double mods. 50 and 52pts sounds much better for what you get there. Of course Braylen would then be restricted to non-red maneuvers. Which was why we got into this mess in the first place

Which I guess really sums up my issue with Rebels - you have a LOT of less-good pilot abilities/platforms sitting at INI 3/4. You are paying for that mid-PS but it doesn't necessarily do you any good in the meta and being at mid-INI makes the abilities less good. But you don't really see much savings in points given that overall muddiness/lack of focus. Imperials meanwhile seem to really hit the sweet spot of paying the right amount for efficient, focused ships at useful INI values.

B-wings should fly like an ugly brick because they are ugly bricks. They are slow, cumbersome gunships designed to assault capital ships, they’ve always been terrible dog fighters. Once some good cannon options open up they’ll be fine.

8 minutes ago, HolySorcerer said:

B-wings should fly like an ugly brick because they are ugly bricks. They are slow, cumbersome gunships designed to assault capital ships, they’ve always been terrible dog fighters. Once some good cannon options open up they’ll be fine.

I feel like decent cannon options already exist?

1 minute ago, Boom Owl said:

I feel like decent cannon options already exist?

They have the same problem as 1.0 cannons in their opportunity cost. Without a double tap, the shot has to be as good or better than the primary.

I‘d argue that it is NOT the case for Jamming Beam. It can be for tractor, depending on lower-initiative shots that follow, and on rocks. And it likely is the case for ion. HLC depends on your skill, but I‘d rate it worse than the ion cannon.

1 minute ago, GreenDragoon said:

HLC depends on your skill, but I‘d rate it worse than the ion cannon.

Are we sure about this for HLC though? Just take more than 1?

Like even Boba Fett with HLC is pretty **** good for the couple rounds your not range 1.

Since variable cost is enabled by the app, it would be nice to see cannon upgrade costing scale based on the attack value of the ship it is equipped to - paying for an Ion cannon on a 2 attack ship nets you increased offense plus the utility. On a B-Wing/Aggressor it's just a utility upgrade. I really don't expect to see FFG go down that rabbit hole though.

Just now, Boom Owl said:

Are we sure about this for HLC though? Just take more than 1?

Like even Boba Fett with HLC is pretty **** good for the couple rounds your not range 1.

Your HLC shot has to deal additional X damage more than the 1 of the ion. I think these questions are objectively answerable to some degree. For example, in what situation do you deal 2+ Hits with the ion, and how valuable does the next turn have to be to be better than HLC?

Same with the tractor beam: how many following shots and rock damage do you need to be better than a primary or HLC?

That can be answered for different situations. I never exercised it through, but could be interesting.

9 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

I feel like decent cannon options already exist?

3 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

They have the same problem as 1.0 cannons in their opportunity cost. Without a double tap, the shot has to be as good or better than the primary.

I‘d argue that it is NOT the case for Jamming Beam. It can be for tractor, depending on lower-initiative shots that follow, and on rocks. And it likely is the case for ion. HLC depends on your skill, but I‘d rate it worse than the ion cannon.

They still need the ability to leverage those cannons to make them more useful. It could be a system slot or ept that makes cannons better, or a mod to link fire, or something, but right now jamming beam is worse than useless, tractors are eh, ions are okay, and hlc is good but cumbersome.

1 minute ago, HolySorcerer said:

hlc is good but cumbersome. 

I think thats where I disagree. A single i4-i5 ship can line it up semi reliably without much effort. Thats before you consider 2-4 ships all with HLC in a list.

Just now, Boom Owl said:

I think thats where I disagree. A single i4-i5 ship can line it up semi reliably without much effort. Thats before you consider 2-4 ships all with HLC in a list.

I just made this same argument in the Scyk thread. A single HLC might be cumbersome since your opponent is going to be dodging it... Multiple and your opponent is going to either get hit hard or sacrifice a lot of positioning.

Just now, LagJanson said:

I just made this same argument in the Scyk thread. A single HLC might be cumbersome since your opponent is going to be dodging it... Multiple and your opponent is going to either get hit hard or sacrifice a lot of positioning.

After a couple games with prockets I really am changing my tune on lower initiative bullseye dependent ships in general. Im probably over estimating some things here based on anecdote meaningless jank games but Proton Rockets, Crackshot, Predator, and HLC all seem like solid value and cards that FFG put in the game expecting us to use to ramp up dmg output.

2 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

I think thats where I disagree. A single i4-i5 ship can line it up semi reliably without much effort. Thats before you consider 2-4 ships all with HLC in a list.

On a B-Wing? Maybe. They certainly aren't as easy to use as the ion cannon though. You can fit 4 HLC + TB + B-wings in a list with a few points to spare though. You certainly wouldn't want to joust that.

8 minutes ago, HolySorcerer said:

On a B-Wing? Maybe. They certainly aren't as easy to use as the ion cannon though. You can fit 4 HLC + TB + B-wings in a list with a few points to spare though. You certainly wouldn't want to joust that.

This is sorta my point. Just 1 HLC thing is gonna line up shots if you have 2-3 other ships tieing up your opponent.

*Need to clarify that i might be dead wrong on all this but this is an example of why I am trying to keep an open rational mind about basically everything in 2.0 since its the only way to discover what stuff actually can do before dismissing it to soon. (Except Dash who is bad and should feel bad...)

7 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

This is sorta my point. Just 1 HLC thing is gonna line up shots if you have 2-3 other ships tieing up your opponent.

*Need to clarify that i might be dead wrong on all this but this is an example of why I am trying to keep an open rational mind about basically everything in 2.0 since its the only way to discover what stuff actually can do before dismissing it to soon. (Except Dash who is bad and should feel bad...)

I might be a little hard on HLC because it isn't a good fit on the Gunboat anymore, but I certainly don't think that they are bad. One thing to keep in mind is that while you may have an easy time getting something is some bullseye arcs, you won't be able to catch much in all of your bullseye arcs. This means that HLC is encouraging you to split your fire if you want to get the most of it, and that probably isn't the best choice.

Perhaps a more balanced list?

Braylen Stramm (50)
Heavy Laser Cannon (4)
Tractor Beam (3)

Blue Squadron Pilot (42)
Heavy Laser Cannon (4)
Tractor Beam (3)

Blue Squadron Pilot (42)
Ion Cannon (5)

Blue Squadron Pilot (42)
Ion Cannon (5)

Total: 200

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