14 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

I like your point but I question anyone's ability to be truly objective about this game.

 Like, part of me thinks perhaps your optimism about the turrets being gone is because you yourself are a high-PS reposition-based arc-dodging ace player.

 Because I know I have done the same thing myself. Since my favorite type of list is 3 or more beefy identical generics with ordnance or heavy cannons, I didn't really think triple Jumpmasters was that big of a deal.

 I just think if we really open our eyes to it, we're old players and don't really care about anything because we're in it for the long haul and know that all OP NPE cancerfests get nerfed eventually (unless they're bounty hunters because Alex Davy bounty hunter fan REEEEE).

 So the only reason any of this stuff super matters is from the perspective of a new player, since we all want more people to play with. And from a new player's point of view, 2.0 is better than 1.0 for now because maybe they won't have to buy to conversion kits or stuff from other factions to get the cards (remains to be seen what's legal for competitive games and what it looks like going forward, and if some factions are just not competitive). But there's still going to be NPEs for a new player, and I'm not really sure if getting arc-dodged to death is any more fun than getting TLT-ed to death.

Oh dont get me wrong, I fully recognize that High PS Double Reposition aces are their own kind of stupid easy and sadness for an opponent. Hopefully they will be priced appropriately.

I am a small base arcs player first. In the end thats what I want from X-Wing. If thats at I6 or I1 I am just as happy.

Full Turrets put a very restrictive ceiling on the joy in 1.0 and their absence makes me extremely enthusiastic about 2.0 regardless of what other balance issues will have to be dealt with.

16 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

I'm not really sure if getting arc-dodged to death is any more fun than getting TLT-ed to death.

You could try Chutes and Ladders. Nobody dies in Chutes and Ladders. ().

But seriously, just like in 1.0, if this game only has 1 goal--(insert game mechanic here) you to death, it's just gonna be the same mousetrap with different gears.

FFG really needs to come up with different ways to win the game.

2 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Oh dont get me wrong, I fully recognize that High PS Double Reposition aces are their own kind of stupid easy and sadness for an opponent. Hopefully they will be priced appropriately.

I am a small base arcs player first. In the end thats what I want from X-Wing. If thats at I6 or I1 I am just as happy.

Full Turrets put a very restrictive ceiling on the joy in 1.0 and their absence makes me extremely enthusiastic about 2.0 regardless of what other balance issues will have to be dealt with.

Yeah, no, I think you're right, and people on these forums have been talking about 360 turrets as being the ultimate evil in this game since the game started.

I'm glad that arcs matter now and from what my experience flying Crack Dealers with basically no practice beforehand at GenCon, swarms are an excellent place to start for new players.

Enough arcs placed well enough can shut down both ace-NPEs and turret-NPEs, so I'm really looking forward to the toning down of both in 2.0.

All I'm trying to say is that I think we should be careful with our optimism because in the end... hey, it's FFG. They make great games that suck us in and then break our hearts with the cost, rules complexity, and power creep. I think they're slowly learning, but I'm still keeping an eye on them...

7 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

You could try Chutes and Ladders. Nobody dies in Chutes and Ladders. ().

But seriously, just like in 1.0, if this game only has 1 goal--(insert game mechanic here) you to death, it's just gonna be the same mousetrap with different gears.

FFG really needs to come up with different ways to win the game.

Yeah, FFG's alt-format department is really lacking. Epic has a lot of problems that are never really addressed just because it's not standard competitive 100/6, and I'm not confident in their "themed tournament" for the wave kits to end in any less of a dumpster fire than their "quickbuild format", better known as the "Supernatural Vader mirror match tournament" or their Coruscant Invitational.

Forcing us to take the same exact game we already do all the time and then stick one particular different card in there isn't that exciting of an alternate format, and I'm sort of expecting the "themed tournaments" to be just as poorly designed.

Name all the crazy NPEs in wave 1?

vader doesn’t have good friends.

fenn is sufficiently expensive (but good).

luke has friends problems.

basically just tie swarms, and there are some answers there too.

like, I felt like all those dials mattered (less with vader, but it was a bit easier to find him since his friends suck).

Well I know back in the Destiny forums we used to have enormous debates over "what even counts as an NPE" so I'm pretty hesitant to name things NPEs straight up. So I tend to think of NPE as defined person-by-person at the listbuilding step.

There's zero NPEs anywhere in 2.0 for me. When I was flying Crack Dealers at GenCon I legitimately had fun flying against GhostFenn and Bob's Builders so literally nothing in 2.0 scares me.

I just think that a new player showing up and literally never shooting Vader the whole game feels a little like an NPE for that person and normally I wouldn't care because it wouldn't be an NPE for me but I really don't want X-Wing to die so I need that new person to actually like playing it with me.

I define NPE as something that limits interactivity, or diminishes core aspects of the game.

Destiny absolutely had NPEs, so does 1.0.

39 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

I’m still not excited for all ships.

sorry guys.

It's okay, all ships are excited for you.

1 hour ago, Tlfj200 said:

I’m still not excited for all ships.

sorry guys.

Can’t wait for the “Boba or Vader?” meta

56 minutes ago, skotothalamos said:

Can’t wait for the “Boba or Vader?” meta

*tie swarm

1 hour ago, Mattman7306 said:

*tie swarm

And Luke.

and Norra.

1 hour ago, Tlfj200 said:

And Luke.

and Norra.

You say that like it’s two different lists.

As much as fun as going "ooh, shiny" with all the stuff in the conversion kits, I do think 2e only will be a much better format for the game going forward.

I'm still fascinated by it:

Ciena Ree + Inq means Inq can do a -2 K-turn. That is, he turns in place and does a 2 straight (and slides 0.5 the the side), or a -2 sloop where he turns in place and does a 2 bank towards the side where he rolled.

I think there is a lot of focus on what’s gone from 2.0, when one of the biggest pulls is what it brings back.

It’s a really, really big deal that 2 dice actually do damage again. That alone is a massive boon.

Also, for the rerelease only versus “everyone is here!” discussion, I don’t know if it’s so cut and dry as “We want less because it won’t be as broken”. While I think that is the most likely scenario, what if Vader or something else in wave 1 is one of the best options, period? Then we have even less options to combat that, and it could potentially be even more degenerate.

Yes, I understand there is a good bit of probability that is wrong and an excuse for my obtuse desire to see everything available. Still, I’m really surprised by how many of you arent also obtuse and want to throw everything in the pot. I’m fascinated at the potential diversity for that first month if this is the direction they go. Yes, it will probably devolve into (necessary) degenerate net listing of npe lists past that point, but that first month would be something we will never have the opportunity of replicating ever again.

Also, there is no way the conversion materials will NEVER be standard tourney legal, right? That would be absurd if we can’t use the xwing, Ywing, etc pilots only found in the conversions along with the rest of the wave.

If anyone can give me reason to believe this, I will cancel that pre order so quick.

1 hour ago, Kdubb said:

“everyone is here!”

****, I really want to see a smash style, x wing 2.0 trailer now

2 hours ago, Kdubb said:

I think there is a lot of focus on what’s gone from 2.0, when one of the biggest pulls is what it brings back.

It’s a really, really big deal that 2 dice actually do damage again. That alone is a massive boon.

Also, for the rerelease only versus “everyone is here!” discussion, I don’t know if it’s so cut and dry as “We want less because it won’t be as broken”. While I think that is the most likely scenario, what if Vader or something else in wave 1 is one of the best options, period? Then we have even less options to combat that, and it could potentially be even more degenerate.

Yes, I understand there is a good bit of probability that is wrong and an excuse for my obtuse desire to see everything available. Still, I’m really surprised by how many of you arent also obtuse and want to throw everything in the pot. I’m fascinated at the potential diversity for that first month if this is the direction they go. Yes, it will probably devolve into (necessary) degenerate net listing of npe lists past that point, but that first month would be something we will never have the opportunity of replicating ever again.

Also, there is no way the conversion materials will NEVER be standard tourney legal, right? That would be absurd if we can’t use the xwing, Ywing, etc pilots only found in the conversions along with the rest of the wave.

If anyone can give me reason to believe this, I will cancel that pre order so quick.

see the other side of that is that its a heck of a lot easier to balance a small number of cards than it is a large number. Additionally, I don't really think that any one thing in wave one will be tournament dominant. Yes, Vader is good but as @Tlfj200 points out he has to fly with people. Nothing in wave 1 can't be countered in some way or another, and once you add in more elements that becomes harder to guarantee. As for stuff in the conversions being legal, I think it comes down to time and event level. I fully expect low level stuff to be wave one only as that is the most welcoming for new players.

13 hours ago, Tlfj200 said:

I’m still not excited for all ships.

sorry guys.

I think I totally missed what you meant by “everything”. I already was viewing 2nd edition wave only vs full conversion kits as two fully separate game modes. When I say I am excited about everything I mean both game modes.

If I have to choose just one...I am fine with the core tournament scene being restricted to Wave 1 and beyond only. Mostly because it would allow us as players and the game itself a little more time to evolve with these new design "guidelines" and would probably make for a cleaner more welcoming experience for new competitive players. There is such thing as to much content at once, not to mention the issue of how few ships Resistance & FO will have. I don't necessarily need or want everything to be playable from the word go. Even if a huge quantity of the Imperial and Scum faction looks absolutely ridiculously awesome. I am ok with waiting for it to be "released" to the core competitive game mode once it earns the right and still having a chance to use all of it for local games. I am excited about everything (meaning New Wave restricted only and full kits separately) because I have been assuming maybe wrongly that we will have an opportunity to play the full conversion kit stuff (outside of core tournaments) and the 2.0 wave only stuff at major tournaments.

FFG I think has said they will be using multiple game modes. I assume this entire topic and probably your concern specifically is exactly why.

regarding 2 dice attacks... how much worse are hyper offensive stacks going to be now? I have a 6 die ARC build with double mods no less that I plan on flying often. I'm sure thats going to hurt a few things.

2 hours ago, Wiredin said:

regarding 2 dice attacks... how much worse are hyper offensive stacks going to be now? I have a 6 die ARC build with double mods no less that I plan on flying often. I'm sure thats going to hurt a few things.

I‘m thinking along similar lines but regarding action economy. Most of my builds so far get plenty of actions per turn.

It looks like massed red dice and actions are still happening. Did we drink the koolaid?

45 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

I‘m thinking along similar lines but regarding action economy. Most of my builds so far get plenty of actions per turn.

It looks like massed red dice and actions are still happening. Did we drink the koolaid?

we sure did. I think defensive stacking has been reigned in pretty hard. but 5 dice attacks will be just as common as they are now. less auto damage tho... I think

5 hours ago, Wiredin said:

we sure did. I think defensive stacking has been reigned in pretty hard. but 5 dice attacks will be just as common as they are now. less auto damage tho... I think

5 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

I‘m thinking along similar lines but regarding action economy. Most of my builds so far get plenty of actions per turn.

It looks like massed red dice and actions are still happening. Did we drink the koolaid?

Would either of you mind elaborating about massed offensive efficiency? Most of what I've seen has involved either Force (expensive), support ships (more expensive), or limited conditions (Predator, Lone Wolf, etc.).

My first impressions, at least, are not that double mods don't exist, but that they require more work, which seems fine to me, by and large. I won't say there are no exceptions at all, but I haven't seen things overly concerning yet.

3 hours ago, Biophysical said:

Would either of you mind elaborating about massed offensive efficiency? Most of what I've seen has involved either Force (expensive), support ships (more expensive), or limited conditions (Predator, Lone Wolf, etc.).

My first impressions, at least, are not that double mods don't exist, but that they require more work, which seems fine to me, by and large. I won't say there are no exceptions at all, but I haven't seen things overly concerning yet.

I am glad force and some of the good upgrades actually look like they will require you to manage charges semi carefully.

Even if its significantly easier to do with Vader or Luke its still another decision to potentially mess up and pay for.

There some infinite pilot abilities that look like they could have been charge based to though dont necessarily have to be ( Norras re-enforce, Bobas rerolls, Defender/Phantom ship abilities, etc. )

I wonder if FFG will consider not just using points changes to balance good things but also adding charges to things that are currently infinite. To many might make the game clunky but its an interesting mechanic in general.

3 hours ago, Biophysical said:

Would either of you mind elaborating about massed offensive efficiency? Most of what I've seen has involved either Force (expensive), support ships (more expensive), or limited conditions (Predator, Lone Wolf, etc.).

My first impressions, at least, are not that double mods don't exist, but that they require more work, which seems fine to me, by and large. I won't say there are no exceptions at all, but I haven't seen things overly concerning yet.

Shara Bey (53)
Trick Shot (1)
Perceptive Copilot (10)
Veteran Tail Gunner (4)
R3 Astromech (3)

Wedge Antilles (52)
Swarm Tactics (3)
R4 Astromech (2)
Afterburners (8)
Servomotor S-foils (Open) (0)

Jan Ors (42)
Squad Leader (4)
Tactical Officer (2)
Engine Upgrade (*)
Moldy Crow (12)

Total: 199

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

this is the squad I was talking about for mass offense.

Shara Bey can get 5-6 dice pretty regularly with this combo. I've been practicing keeping it in formation too and it's pretty simple. If Shara can't get the shot then Wedge has the opportunity to hit hard too. Not only that, but both Wedge and Shara will shoot at i6 which can be devastating to most opponents on the field. This is the list I'm most excited to fly in 2.0...and really the only rebel list I'm excited for. Obviously Jan Ors is built to add a white coordinate so that she can hand out the second mod to whomever is in a better position at the time to strike.

Only fine tuning I want to do with this list is figure out what I can remove to get a stronger bid in place.

On quick glance, you can remove the droids, trick shot, afterburners, and tail gunner to remove 17 points. Honestly though I think a bid may be overrated with your list. Maybe remove R4 for two more points. Those upgrades aren't as necessary, but they really add lots of oomf to it.