1 hour ago, skotothalamos said:

How do I both ignore an obstacle and gain a benefit from it at the same time, please?

The attack is obstructed, so Han triggers, but if you have a lock on the obstructing obstacle your opponent does not get the benefit of being obstructed? Seems like a legit interpretation to me.

1 minute ago, Biophysical said:

Do Thread Tracers exist in 2.0? That is why that squad works currently.

Indeed, but there's a major shift in everything here and still a lot of unknowns. I'm still deciding on whether a missile approach may be risky just due to the increase in how lethal weapons will be against most targets.

I'm also not fond of the "missile-wing" atmosphere for thematic reasons, but I get that I'm likely minority on this one. My bias is clear.

I get that most of the time homing missiles will only do 1 point of damage, so should be cheaper than a proton torpedo, but I don't believe 2 points is the correct value either. It's a balancing act here...

5 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

Thought from the non-math guy on homing missiles:

• I don't think homing missiles should get so cheap they're absolutely spammable in a swarm here. Sure, in a three ship it's not a problem, but take Blair with a Z95 swarm with these things? And they get to shoot twice each?

The Z swarm is going to be very good in 2.0, with built-in EM on most Missiles and the red barrel roll as a last resort reposition, but the list did lose all three of the upgrades it had.

Harpoons - gone

Thread Tracers - gone

Guidance Chips - gone

1 minute ago, LagJanson said:

Indeed, but there's a major shift in everything here and still a lot of unknowns. I'm still deciding on whether a missile approach may be risky just due to the increase in how lethal weapons will be against most targets.

I'm also not fond of the "missile-wing" atmosphere for thematic reasons, but I get that I'm likely minority on this one. My bias is clear.

I get that most of the time homing missiles will only do 1 point of damage, so should be cheaper than a proton torpedo, but I don't believe 2 points is the correct value either. It's a balancing act here...

I totally agree with this sentiment. The idea of a Z-swarm punching through 7 auto-damage in 1 turn feels... bad

5 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

Indeed, but there's a major shift in everything here and still a lot of unknowns. I'm still deciding on whether a missile approach may be risky just due to the increase in how lethal weapons will be against most targets.

I'm also not fond of the "missile-wing" atmosphere for thematic reasons, but I get that I'm likely minority on this one. My bias is clear.

I get that most of the time homing missiles will only do 1 point of damage, so should be cheaper than a proton torpedo, but I don't believe 2 points is the correct value either. It's a balancing act here...

It is a balancing act, but they've boxed themselves in by making the card have such limited usefulness.

In the second half of the latest episode, which just sounds like my house since Friday, with a little less cursing.

Just now, Biophysical said:

It is a balancing act, but they've boxed themselves in by making the card have such limited usefulness.

Indeed. I've got concerns about a couple of design decisions they've made for 2.0. Everything may unfold correctly, but homing missiles are definitely an area of concern. These feel like they are going to have to be priced on knife edge between NPE/Garbage.

Just now, LagJanson said:

Indeed. I've got concerns about a couple of design decisions they've made for 2.0. Everything may unfold correctly, but homing missiles are definitely an area of concern. These feel like they are going to have to be priced on knife edge between NPE/Garbage.

homing missile? or luke gunner?

57 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

homing missile? or luke gunner?

Why not both?

Delayed Edit: So I don't sound like a complete idiot here, I don't think homing missiles are anyway as dangerous as Luke gunner. They both will likely suffer the same issues with points, but Luke costing somewhere around 25-30 points more...

21 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

I think your math is likely wrong. In the extreme case, if Zs are 24, 26 with Homing, then two cost you 52.

A.) I think an X-wing with Torps and maybe a pilot upgrade is better than 2 Zs.

B.) Isn't it so much better to pay a little more and have 2 Zs with Prockets?

So I disagree with A, but also wanted to follow up on prockets. I'm looking at a 2 agility ship with focus as the defender.

Naively, a single proton torp into it does ~1.75 damage. Two homings do 2 damage unless they're an idiot. More importantly, in following turns those Zs still have those target locks - they can kturn, or 2 turn roll, or whatever and do it again the next turn. There's a 94% the torps have to use the lock on offense, so now they need to relock to shoot the same target. 1.0 points that rookie would be 25, those Zs would be 26 for both. I'd take the Zs without a second thought.

0-1 Agility (with focus) is the breakpoint to where a single proton is better than two homing.

27 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

I totally agree with this sentiment. The idea of a Z-swarm punching through 7 auto-damage in 1 turn feels... bad

because letting them take 7 missile shots at you is better? Is it somehow FFG's fault that you flew into 7 PS1 arcs?

1 minute ago, skotothalamos said:

because letting them take 7 missile shots at you is better? Is it somehow FFG's fault that you flew into 7 PS1 arcs?

Not quite his point, but yeah... leaving yourself hung out for 7 missile shots is dumb and... impressive? I mean, you didn't accidentally range out on just one arc even? Nuts to that!

@Kieransi was just agreeing that it'd feel bad to be in that position, and oh yeah, it'll feel REAL bad.

3 minutes ago, skotothalamos said:

because letting them take 7 missile shots at you is better? Is it somehow FFG's fault that you flew into 7 PS1 arcs?

My opinion on most things like that is that if you joust it it's your fault, but FFG does count jousting as an NPE-qualifying event. If something is a super-efficient jouster and makes people who joust it sad, FFG likes to remedy that usually. I actually don't really care, but FFG probably does

@Brunas for your Major V list, how do you feel Juke/Comm Relay/Steath Device OL slots in for the Palp Shuttle instead? I was thinking of OL/Vessery/MV all at 8.

32 minutes ago, Brunas said:

So I disagree with A, but also wanted to follow up on prockets. I'm looking at a 2 agility ship with focus as the defender.

Naively, a single proton torp into it does ~1.75 damage. Two homings do 2 damage unless they're an idiot. More importantly, in following turns those Zs still have those target locks - they can kturn, or 2 turn roll, or whatever and do it again the next turn. There's a 94% the torps have to use the lock on offense, so now they need to relock to shoot the same target. 1.0 points that rookie would be 25, those Zs would be 26 for both. I'd take the Zs without a second thought.

0-1 Agility (with focus) is the breakpoint to where a single proton is better than two homing.

Based on this, I think those Zs getting their missiles to work is a bit better than the single X-wing, while costing a tiny bit more. I think this is probably best case scenario for the Homing Missiles, though. TAPs or A-wings are probably adding ~15 points to that missile bsse cost, and TAPs especially probably aren't much different than TIE Bombers who historically have had torpedo upgrade options.

More so, I think without Tracers, LRS, or Deadeye spamming, you won't get much mileage out of ordnance swarms. It seems like Ordnance will be best on higher PS ships, which cost more, and that in turn pushes you to take the payload that matters whenever possible. Like, if I'm taking a PS5 or 6 pilot, I'm not sure Homings are better than a bid.

5 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

Based on this, I think those Zs getting their missiles to work is a bit better than the single X-wing, while costing a tiny bit more. I think this is probably best case scenario for the Homing Missiles, though. TAPs or A-wings are probably adding ~15 points to that missile bsse cost, and TAPs especially probably aren't much different than TIE Bombers who historically have had torpedo upgrade options.

More so, I think without Tracers, LRS, or Deadeye spamming, you won't get much mileage out of ordnance swarms. It seems like Ordnance will be best on higher PS ships, which cost more, and that in turn pushes you to take the payload that matters whenever possible. Like, if I'm taking a PS5 or 6 pilot, I'm not sure Homings are better than a bid.

Wait, but it's explicity easier for the Zs to get locks, as they don't need to get a lock for their second shot. Why is ordnance necessarily better on higher PS ships? We're just carried 1.0 assumptions for no reason here - if my basically free homing missile Z makes you make maneuvers you don't want to dodge it's homing missile, that seems like a feature?

3 hours ago, skotothalamos said:

"Together, they let you fly right through any obstacles you're locking and gain the extra die from Han's ability when firing through those same obstacles—without also granting an extra defense die to your target."

How do I both ignore an obstacle and gain a benefit from it at the same time, please?

It gets better if they forget to change the timing chart to account for this since the current one very clearly put the figuring out of the number of dice on the defender, which Qi'ra won't affect when you're attacking someone. It's basically Dash at that point.

27 minutes ago, Brunas said:

Wait, but it's explicity easier for the Zs to get locks, as they don't need to get a lock for their second shot. Why is ordnance necessarily better on higher PS ships? We're just carried 1.0 assumptions for no reason here - if my basically free homing missile Z makes you make maneuvers you don't want to dodge it's homing missile, that seems like a feature?

I'm assuming no significant change in Target Lock/Ordnance rules. If I'm wrong, none of the previous discussion matters. We've had a lot of major changes spoiled, however, and none of them indicate this change.

I guess I'm thinking that I'm not making any special attempts to dodge a Homing Missile with most ships, since I know that it will only be one damage. Exceptions do apply, of course. I see the strongest general application of Homing is to give an easy damage at Range 3. That kind of shot is typically on an opening salvo or as an attack of opportunity. Those favor high PS ships, typically and especially ships that can afford an action to Target Lock.

But hey, this is all conjecture. Maybe I'm wrong.

1 hour ago, Biophysical said:

I'm assuming no significant change in Target Lock/Ordnance rules. If I'm wrong, none of the previous discussion matters. We've had a lot of major changes spoiled, however, and none of them indicate this change.

I guess I'm thinking that I'm not making any special attempts to dodge a Homing Missile with most ships, since I know that it will only be one damage. Exceptions do apply, of course. I see the strongest general application of Homing is to give an easy damage at Range 3. That kind of shot is typically on an opening salvo or as an attack of opportunity. Those favor high PS ships, typically and especially ships that can afford an action to Target Lock.

But hey, this is all conjecture. Maybe I'm wrong.

Oh, I mean we assume it's better in higher PS things right now because pilot skill is too cheap in second edition. More importantly, that easy damage at range 3 is a soft check on the power of those supernatural force users who only get to say haha your homing missile only does one damage a couple times before being very sad.

1 hour ago, Brunas said:

Oh, I mean we assume it's better in higher PS things right now because pilot skill is too cheap in second edition. More importantly, that easy damage at range 3 is a soft check on the power of those supernatural force users who only get to say haha your homing missile only does one damage a couple times before being very sad.

I think at this point we can't go much further. Both of us have expectations based on points and gaps in the rules which inform out assessments.

I guess time will tell whether it falls into "high PS utility weapon" or "generally good missile."

11 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

I think at this point we can't go much further. Both of us have expectations based on points and gaps in the rules which inform out assessments.

I guess time will tell whether it falls into "high PS utility weapon" or "generally good missile."

probably, yeah. Sounds about right. Should we just devolve into personal insults and strawmen?

Had to censor it, why even live

24 minutes ago, Brunas said:

probably, yeah. Sounds about right. Should we just devolve into personal insults and strawmen?

Had to censor it, why even live

I wonder, does porkins with Proton torps and chips count as a straw man? Like, I don't want to waste time attacking you because you're porkins, but at the same time you are an X-wing with modifiable secondary weapons....

33 minutes ago, Brunas said:

probably, yeah. Sounds about right. Should we just devolve into personal insults and strawmen?

Had to censor it, why even live

You're literally Pol Pot. Did I do that right?

1 hour ago, Biophysical said:

You're literally Pol Pot. Did I do that right?

3 hours ago, Biophysical said:

You're literally Pol Pot. Did I do that right?

Oof, there's no coming back from that one.

I almost made a really awful joke but thought it might be a bit much...