43 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

Thing is, unlike you, I actually happen to like 1.0.

I know, I'm probably the only one in this thread thought

I wouldnt have gotten into X-Wing if I didnt like at least somethings about 1.0

I started playing seriously just before the Herald of the Apocalypse Genius Nym Wookie wave dropped.

It was and is terrible gameplay but I stuck with the rest of the game because there was obviously a good nuanced game underneath the pile of garbage it turned into before I started playing.

Basic mentality is if >50% of my games are interesting Im in, if >50% of my games are boring Im out.

2.0 higlights what I like about 1.0 and makes it a more substantive part of the game.

For that reason alone i am optimistic.

We dont deserve the care and attention that FFG is giving this game.

They certainly dont need 2.0 to keep X-Wing profitable.

I like 1.0, but local players don't really do meta, so we avoid much of the worst.

My son and I are dropping out of the competitive scene with 2.0, the timing is just too good and "I have a bad feeling about this."

They've already got double charge reloads (bomblets, though needing shield spent) and I'm expecting double force recharge to happen soon. Given how potentially unbalancing force points are, with the spoiled force powers on top of it, I'm expecting broken. The stuff that already needs to be FAQed doesn't help.

We'll see a few waves in how it shakes out, but I'm not betting on hope.

34 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

Yeah, I noticed it. The weird thing is that here (and by here I mean, Europe->Italy->Rome) there are way more people who like 1.0 than people that dislike it. They also seem more positive about 2.0 than me thought, but still there aren't the same hate for 1.0

 Then my very limited interactions with NA players (this thread and reddit) is that you guys really loath it

Not... Entirely true...

See, Xwing 1.0 itself has a good game at its core and just about everybody I know likes the core game of Xwing.

The problem is that the balance has been like an increasing pendulum swing to the point list building is less toolbox and more specialized NPE scenarios. Hard counters and rule abuse. This is not a fun game. A player can beat an NPE, but it doesn't make that game fun. A player is highly unlikely to beat a hard counter, which is not fun. An extremely skilled player of course will likely beat both if they out skill their opponents, true, but 90% (spitballing here) is not going to have fun.

I don't expect perfection in 2.0 but I'm hopeful that FFG can maintain a fun game.

If all the broken/unfun upgrades just so happen to be tied to force users it will make a “no force” format a super easy sell.

39 minutes ago, drjkel said:

I like 1.0, but local players don't really do meta, so we avoid much of the worst.

My son and I are dropping out of the competitive scene with 2.0, the timing is just too good and "I have a bad feeling about this."

They've already got double charge reloads (bomblets, though needing shield spent) and I'm expecting double force recharge to happen soon. Given how potentially unbalancing force points are, with the spoiled force powers on top of it, I'm expecting broken. The stuff that already needs to be FAQed doesn't help.

We'll see a few waves in how it shakes out, but I'm not betting on hope.

What already needs to be FAQd? I must have missed something. I think they understand how powerful force charges are - they talk about how good they are every time they bring them up. I'll remain hopeful.

39 minutes ago, Transmogrifier said:

If all the broken/unfun upgrades just so happen to be tied to force users it will make a “no force” format a super easy sell.

If all the broken unfun upgrades are tied to force abilities ffg have given themselves plenty of design space to:

a) up up up on force users

b) ban the really busted force skills

c) break a combo (eg. Take torpedo off Luke)

d) just print more cards (eg. Ysalamiri handler crew that negates force charges).

2 hours ago, Sunitsa said:

Thing is, unlike you, I actually happen to like 1.0.

I know, I'm probably the only one in this thread thought

Personally I quite enjoy 1e still, though it helps that we don’t see a lot of the meta cancer locally. But I fully expect 2e to be far better

28 minutes ago, Brunas said:

What already needs to be FAQd? I must have missed something. I think they understand how powerful force charges are - they talk about how good they are every time they bring them up. I'll remain hopeful.

Well, whether Soontir and Torkil's ability have a range limit is one (two?). What happens if Moralo goes off a corner is another.

I've not paid careful attention (since we're mostly out and I'm not TO anymore, so none of this will be my problem), but I've noticed some less than clear wording here and there in their reveal. It's definitely better, but it's not good.

I may be overly critical because my job relies on watertight wording so I spend my days thinking how I could break, or at least skirt, my own policies so I draft them better. Contrary to what @Mynock Delta suggests, a linguist, I'd suggest someone with more experience in instances where people will aim to abuse linguistic faults. I'd say a lawyer or something similar, but FFG has not shown willingness to pay enough to get those kinds of people on staff.

And I don't want to sap hope away, just caution that expecting miracles won't lead to happiness.

1 minute ago, drjkel said:

Well, whether Soontir and Torkil's ability have a range limit is one (two?). What happens if Moralo goes off a corner is another.

I've not paid careful attention (since we're mostly out and I'm not TO anymore, so none of this will be my problem), but I've noticed some less than clear wording here and there in their reveal. It's definitely better, but it's not good.

I may be overly critical because my job relies on watertight wording so I spend my days thinking how I could break, or at least skirt, my own policies so I draft them better. Contrary to what @Mynock Delta suggests, a linguist, I'd suggest someone with more experience in instances where people will aim to abuse linguistic faults. I'd say a lawyer or something similar, but FFG has not shown willingness to pay enough to get those kinds of people on staff.

And I don't want to sap hope away, just caution that expecting miracles won't lead to happiness.

I can see how Moralo needs a FAQ (a lot of them...) but that whole thread on rangeless abilities is ridiculous. We can't complain about there not being a range limit on things like arcs when we don't have the rules.

Just now, Brunas said:

I can see how Moralo needs a FAQ (a lot of them...) but that whole thread on rangeless abilities is ridiculous. We can't complain about there not being a range limit on things like arcs when we don't have the rules.

I don't read other threads, it's just ill-informed salt at this point.

That being said, I doubt they covered the "Where we state no ranges, we mean range 1-3 (or 0-3?)" in the rules. It'd actually not be a clean way to handle this and there are a lot of cards that specify ranges.

Most of my concerns with the added complexity are handled by Vassal, but real life could get ugly. That, and I'm really concerned about whether 3rd party software will be usable to run tournaments.

3 minutes ago, drjkel said:

I don't read other threads, it's just ill-informed salt at this point.

That being said, I doubt they covered the "Where we state no ranges, we mean range 1-3 (or 0-3?)" in the rules. It'd actually not be a clean way to handle this and there are a lot of cards that specify ranges.

Most of my concerns with the added complexity are handled by Vassal, but real life could get ugly. That, and I'm really concerned about whether 3rd party software will be usable to run tournaments.

I'll be amazed if we don't get a "your arc ends at your weapon range for that arc" rule. Otherwise, how do you even define an arc? Since every ship has every arc now, there have to be clear rules for when an arc exists and where. Why would something with an ion cannon turret have an arc that extended out to range 3 on the side?

11 minutes ago, Brunas said:

I'll be amazed if we don't get a "your arc ends at your weapon range for that arc" rule. Otherwise, how do you even define an arc? Since every ship has every arc now, there have to be clear rules for when an arc exists and where. Why would something with an ion cannon turret have an arc that extended out to range 3 on the side?

It is gonna be a little weird, because Dengar uses the primary arc forward symbol while having a single slice turret. It almost certainly means “while his mobile is pointed forward” but I’m hoping there is a good section in the rules.

“In arc” for the HWKs should be interesting, it will be where ever the mobile is pointed but they can take the title for the shadowcaster equivalent.

I went back and looked, nothing has been spoiled that has “in arc at range 1-3” or “in arc at range 0-3” so I am tentatively assuming “in arc” is limited to the range and direction of the weapon. If you could shoot it in the engagement it is in arc, otherwise it is not. (I can still be super proven wrong).

also something I have not seen anyone discuss: you want your sense carrier to be equal or lower initiative to your bomb carrier. I’m pretty sure that system/device phase has ships go in initiative order, so you want the intel agent effect before choosing to drop bombs or decloak or whatever. Could be a good use of the generic Inquisitor. It also means we need to be wary of high initiative bombers still, but less so.

19 minutes ago, AEIllingworth said:

I went back and looked, nothing has been spoiled that has “in arc at range 1-3” or “in arc at range 0-3” so I am tentatively assuming “in arc” is limited to the range and direction of the weapon. If you could shoot it in the engagement it is in arc, otherwise it is not. (I can still be super proven wrong).

Asajj says 0-2. Without specifications on the card, what happens the first time one of them says 0-3? All other cards are assumed to be rangeless?

They worked so hard to get symbols for everything, it makes one think that if something is not said, it simply does not apply. Until the rulebook is spoiled, we won't know for sure.

24 minutes ago, AEIllingworth said:

It is gonna be a little weird, because Dengar uses the primary arc forward symbol while having a single slice turret. It almost certainly means “while his mobile is pointed forward” but I’m hoping there is a good section in the rules.

i agree. most likely they have taken the opportunity to move a lot of unnecessary text to the rule book and off the cards to save space. eg. an arc is anything you can shoot from and extends to range 3, an arc symbol with a strip is a bullseye and works like Y and mobile arc is a pointed circle symbol and does such and such.

2 minutes ago, drjkel said:

Asajj says 0-2. Without specifications on the card, what happens the first time one of them says 0-3? All other cards are assumed to be rangeless?

They worked so hard to get symbols for everything, it makes one think that if something is not said, it simply does not apply. Until the rulebook is spoiled, we won't know for sure.

I'm so confused. Because asajj specifically says 0-2 (because her weapon range is 1-3) that means my ion cannot turret arc is range infinity for checking range for abilities? What? You're right, we don't know for sure until we have the rulebook - so why are we assuming it's broken?

Trying to find loopholes in a rule set that we don’t yet have is a huge pet peeve of mine. I heard someone talking about the E-Wing LRS and saying something like “it doesn’t say no locks at range 0! you can get Coordinated to lock someone you’re bumping. Ell Oh Ell. Gotcha, FFG!”

yeah... not if the rulebook says Locks can be acquired at range 1-3.

Same for firing arcs. We don’t know how much content has been off-loaded to the actual rules, so we can’t fully evaluate the cards which are all exceptions to those rules!

9 hours ago, Sunitsa said:

I am very worried.

I really doubt that the same people (?) that gave us Palpatine, Jumpmasters, Lowhrick, X/7, Harpoon and Miranda (and refusing to actually touch her despite being out since what, 2015?) are suddendly able to make a whole new game without screwing up majorly in some aspect.

Yes, the app now might help, but it is left to see how willingly will FFG choose to actually do something. Considering the time they took to fix some obvious mistake in 1.0 and that they didn't actually fix some other broken stuff at all (looking at you again Miranda, but also Sabine is there saying hello) I have at least some reserve about 2.0 since FFG has been chronically slow to change anything in 1.0.

The slow update speed has a lot to do with needing Disney's approval for any card text changes in 1.0.

The fact that prices and also the upgrade slots are only in App should make this much easier.

Also they can control combos very easily in App - e.g. they can specifically forbid you from using upgrade X on ship Y, if needed, or upgrade A with upgrade B.

9 hours ago, Sunitsa said:

Force users feel like they will be the staple, any other aces will need to have a great ability justify fly him rather than someone who at the very least, can turn one focus per turn.

Hmm, are we looking at the same cards here?

Because for me Grand Inquisitor looks terrible compared to 1.0 version. Vader has good ability and a lot of force tokens, but he is severely limited by his chassis, namely the lack of native boost and evade action.

For me Soontir Fell in 2.0 still looks better than both Inqui and Vader. And even generic Tie Defender looks much better than all 3 of them..

With the improvements to generics which we have seen so far (built-in soft PTL, increased health, increased maneuverability for X-wings, etc), I would be more worried that jousting lists might be dominating 2.0 on the release.

And not about arc-dodging aces which all have been seriously nerfed compared to 1.0.. (at least on the Imperial side)

All the force powers above look quite nice, but nothing screams OP or broken to me.. And I believe they have mentioned the force powers replace the EPT slot for force users.

9 hours ago, Sunitsa said:

1.0 had one big and glaring issue. Despite what many say, no it wasn't turrets: it was point fortressing. Had FFG gutted it in every of its form (Lowhrick, docked Attack Shuttle, Kylo and Miranda being the main culprits) I would have been way less worried than having FFG starting from scratch and potentially give us an equally broken game.

Sorry for the rant, but I post it with the hope that someone is able to change my mind about 2.0 because I want to love the game even after September

- Lowhrick -> reinforce action was nerfed (always taking at least 1 damage now), less health

- docked Attack shuttle -> nerfed, no automatic 2nd attack now, less health on Ghost, no Evade action

- Kylo -> we haven't seen him yet, but Luke crew could be a defense if he's too OP

- Miranda -> seriously nerfed, less shields, regens only with primary atk. Also other regen abilities have been seriously gutted.

1 hour ago, player44455 said:

The slow update speed has a lot to do with needing Disney's approval for any card text changes in 1.0.

The fact that prices and also the upgrade slots are only in App should make this much easier.

Also they can control combos very easily in App - e.g. they can specifically forbid you from using upgrade X on ship Y, if needed, or upgrade A with upgrade B.

Unless they are willing to nerf some potentially broken card to oblivion by insanely raising their cost to the point even a great thing become useless, I don't really see how they are free from Disney approval.

I get that they might change slots and cost easier with the app, but in 1.0 some stuff was conceptly broken (Manaroo and Palpatine are probably the two biggest example, the Emperor in particular would probably still have seen play if it costed 12), it is yet to see how eager and able to fix stuff accordingly FFG will be.

1 hour ago, player44455 said:

Hmm, are we looking at the same cards here?

Because for me Grand Inquisitor looks terrible compared to 1.0 version. Vader has good ability and a lot of force tokens, but he is severely limited by his chassis, namely the lack of native boost and evade action.

For me Soontir Fell in 2.0 still looks better than both Inqui and Vader. And even generic Tie Defender looks much better and all 3 of them..

With the improvements to generics which we have seen so far (built-in soft PTL, increased health, increased maneuverability for X-wings, etc), I would be more worried that jousting lists might be dominating 2.0 on the release.

And not about arc-dodging aces which all have been seriously nerfed compared to 1.0..

All the force powers above look quite nice, but nothing screams OP or broken to me.. And I believe they have mentioned the force powers replace the EPT slot for force users.

There definitely be some force users worse than others, but I don't see bullseye, no autothrusters Soontir with the new evade mechanics so great.

As I said, generics look extremely good and probably we are going into an environment where the best upgrade will just be another ship

1 hour ago, player44455 said:

- Lowhrick -> reinforce action was nerfed (always taking at least 1 damage now)

- docked Attack shuttle -> nerfed, no automatic 2nd attack now, less health on Ghost, no Evade action

- Kylo -> we haven't seen him yet, but Luke crew could be a defense if he's too OP

- Miranda -> seriously nerfed, less shields, regens only with primary atk. Also other regen abilities have been seriously gutted.

I wasn't implying that 2.0 isn't gutting those 4 bad boys, but that 1.0 issues were far more limited and that I would probably preferred some sort of 1.5 rather than straight 2.0 with extreme point fortressing made impossible and non action modifiers tied to fully executing manouvers

1 hour ago, Sunitsa said:

Unless they are willing to nerf some potentially broken card to oblivion by insanely raising their cost to the point even a great thing become useless, I don't really see how they are free from Disney approval.

because they have likely either sought advice from their own legal team or negotiated with LFL that the agreement for 2.0 does not extend to elements of the game contained within the app.

in other words the fact that points or upgrade slots may change is considered a fundamental game mechanic that gets signed of in the initial 2.0 approval. which means they hopefully don't have to seek LFL's feedback anytime they make changes to those game elements the way an FAQ has to.

FAQ's would likely still be under the same constraints as 1.0 so i would expect them to be few and far between and FFG would hopefully make frequent app updates and perhaps bi-annual FAQs. that said given the size of the FFG team i think we will get fewer app updates than people would like.

2 hours ago, Sunitsa said:

I get that they might change slots and cost easier with the app, but in 1.0 some stuff was conceptly broken (Manaroo and Palpatine are probably the two biggest example, the Emperor in particular would probably still have seen play if it costed 12), it is yet to see how eager and able to fix stuff accordingly FFG will be.

i disagree with the idea anything in 1.0 was so conceptually broken points cant fix it. if you took Jelte de Boer's worlds list and stuck 4 extra points on palp you are trading Yorr -> OGP or Inq -> OL and your list is now either much more vulnerable to stress or much worse against TLTs. and that could be enough to bump it down to a B or C grade list.

7 hours ago, Brunas said:

You're right, we don't know for sure until we have the rulebook - so why are we assuming it's broken?

The past 5 (?) years?

This is relevant-ish, but here was my complaint about the third and 4th X-wing fix cards getting revealed- (holy **** this was almost 100 pages ago)

On 4/24/2018 at 7:58 PM, Kaptin Krunch said:

The following is not ****-posting, and is not "X-wings 2 Stronk" conplaining.

While it's nice that the T-65 is good, this expansion cements my fears about FFG being unwilling to use errata to fix problems, limiting themselves to creating new mechanics and enforcing a mandatory spiral of powercreep. This basically is confirming that balance changes will be tied to the product release cycle indefinitely. This reminds me of 6th/7th edition of 40k, and that's super discouraging. If they announced a living point cost/rules document/app on the 1st, I'd be more on-board than a superglue enthusiast cheating at a surfing competition though. I'll spend the money for the expansions pretty much regardless of card content (err, spend the store credit I win at least), I just want the game to be fun.

Am I wrong in thinking that some change to the underlying system of content production needs to change? Someone talk some sense into me.

2.0 basically fixes my problems with FFG's method of content distribution, since they can buff and nerf freely now.

Powercreep is a massive pain in the *** and I'm glad they can minimize that by making the new OP ships cost what they need to.

Because we absolutely know for a fact that Alex is going to see some new Scum ship and decide to give it twice the hitpoints of an X-Wing, better attack, two each of every upgrade slot, tons of blue maneuvers, and then like three new mechanics that are totally busted, so at least this time the devs can fix the problem by making that ship cost 120 points.

I agree

Alpha x-wing intergalactic loremaster 2000 until defeated The Zak Mathews carolina krayts podcast invitational champion!

Shot thanks

4 hours ago, Kieransi said:

Powercreep is a massive pain in the *** and I'm glad they can minimize that by making the new OP ships cost what they need to.

powercreep is also a natural part of game development and marketing. the points is one method to solve it but the other method is rotations.

that was my hope before we knew the worlds announcement was 2.0. was that since we hadn't got an FAQ they were going to something like release a 3rd starter pack with power creep Xwings and Ties and rotate out any card that hasn't been printed since the FA starter was released (Wave 8 onward).

highlights of cards that would have rotated out:

- Palp
- Extra Munitions
- C-3P0
- Engine Upgrade
- Heavy Laser Cannon
- Miranda
- R2-D2
- Glitterstim