5 minutes ago, viedit said:

You also have to balance that red dice variance with the reduced defensive stacking and changes to evade. Outside of stealth device the most Evades that Soontir can get is 3. Not 4. Autothrusters is no longer there for defensive buffs. Plus the simple fact that Red dice have better sides than green dice. Ships will be easier to hit in 2.0 than 1.0.

Also, one could argue that if an opponent can get multiple arcs on your to overload your limited defensive mods... they (or you) deserve it?

7 minutes ago, viedit said:

You also have to balance that red dice variance with the reduced defensive stacking and changes to evade. Outside of stealth device the most Evades that Soontir can get is 3. Not 4. Autothrusters is no longer there for defensive buffs. Plus the simple fact that Red dice have better sides than green dice. Ships will be easier to hit in 2.0 than 1.0.

Also, one could argue that if an opponent can get multiple arcs on your to overload your limited defensive mods... they (or you) deserve it

1 minute ago, Boom Owl said:

Also this is something I am genuinely looking forward to seeing in practice and have very little direct experience with at a tournament level or outside of casual games were we forced generics onto the table.

Multiple ( 5+ ) Low PS ships should have the advantage of more dice. I have never played that version of competitive X-Wing. I hear it was pretty good

I have flown the yahtzee dice throwing approach for a lark, I know it works well some games and falls on its face in others. It'll be easier to hit ships in 1.0, but dice still fail in that critical moment now and then without modifications.

Now having many cheaper ships could work - not as a wall presenting more dice (which can work on that first pass) but in allowing you to outmaneuver with some ships so that you can safely attack from outside of arc. It's been a strategy I've used in non-synergistic four ship Rebels from time to time. Didn't work well vs turrets...

3 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

Also, one could argue that if an opponent can get multiple arcs on your to overload your limited defensive mods... they (or you) deserve it?

I believe that's the "Got Gud" win condition.

Another big change in 2.0 is how reinforce works. If you have a three dice attack on a reinforced ship and only roll 1 hit. In 1.0 get ******. It doesn't do anything. In 2.0 if they blank their defense roll (no natural evade) then that 1 damage still goes through. Reinforce takes a minimum of 1 damage. Tie swarms still stand a chance of chewing through a wall of wookies.

41 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

As for force users, I’m going under the assumption that 1) they’re expensive, and 2) there probably aren’t very many of them (like, make a list: it’s short).

We know there is going to be a generic inquisitor for the TAP.

6 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

I have flown the yahtzee dice throwing approach for a lark

Closest thing to that I have experienced is running all the named strikers + Omega Leader....or taking just a target lock when shooting a missile.

For the Strikers it basically became a situation of if you roll your un-target locked dice from a good spot your fine, if your in a bad spot...yep your super dead.

On a separate note, its not like any of us were modifying our dice in 1.0 anyway right?

Thanks Star Wars Rebels!

Quote

Every time you take an action that is not a focus or TL, you are usually ‘making up for’ a suboptimal maneuver. In this regard, good maneuvers and prediction are rewarded with modded shots, and bad ones get to be unmodded (mostly).

Thus, harder to modify dice is a result of poorer decision (it appears).

But that's true for xwing 1.0 too.

The biggest difference is that now, when not needing to reposition yourself or if you are willing to gamble, you'll often shoot with TL and focus, in what we have see of 2.0, you'll have just focus or TL (unless you kept the TL taken in the previous round, which is something that opens again my concern about luck).

You don't have many chances to do "clear shots" are your opponent in an average game of xwing. THere's a huge difference if you happen to have those chances with double modification or single

Quote

As for force users, I’m going under the assumption that 1) they’re expensive, and 2) there probably aren’t very many of them (like, make a list: it’s short).

Something being expensive itself isn't much if they are also the top dogs. Think about Palpatine: 8 points and 2 crew yet one of the most broken upgrade of the whole game.

And the fact they aren't many is another negative: if we have to switch edition and we are back at seeing 3-4 pilots (and swarms of the most cost effective generics) everywhere isn't that good. It's obviously more epic to actually see Luke facing Vader of course, but I'm not playing for background, I want good gameplay. They could have me flying pink ponies for all that matter.

THis ofc is a premptive rant, maybe all my concerns aren't valid because the Devs did a good job

7 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

my concern about luck

It might be a valid concern but its not super high on my watch list.

I have recently been playing against 5x T-65 lists alot which is the closest to 2.0 in 1.0 i can get right now.

There are definitely times when I basically decide "ok 3 of them will have me in arc but 2 will have k-turned and 1 will just have a focus at range 3? Yep fine ill go right here and see what happens."

Does dice variance play a big part yea kinda, but thats both of our choices instead of just one players choice which in the end is what 2.0 is hopefully all about.

19 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Also this is something I am genuinely looking forward to seeing in practice and have very little direct experience with at a tournament level or outside of casual games were we forced generics onto the table.

Multiple ( 5+ ) Low PS ships should have the advantage of more dice. I have never played that version of competitive X-Wing. I hear it was pretty good

I've been playing a fair amount of 5 rookies kitted out with proxied Saws stuff against competitive lists and it's done pretty good and felt very fun. It's an attrition style of play which old school swarm players probably recall fondly, but folks like myself who got in relatively recently (around HotR release) have to adjust our mindsets. You don't have to be so loss adverse, it's okay to lose ships.

12 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

THis ofc is a premptive rant, maybe all my concerns aren't valid because the Devs did a good job

Gosh I hope so... It looks promising though!

Just now, gennataos said:

I've been playing a fair amount of 5 rookies kitted out with proxied Saws stuff against competitive lists and it's done pretty good and felt very fun. It's an attrition style of play which old school swarm players probably recall fondly, but folks like myself who got in relatively recently (around HotR release) have to adjust our mindsets. You don't have to be so loss adverse, it's okay to lose ships.

I miss flying four X-Wings. I haven't had a chance to drop five on the table now but I'm looking forward to it. I might stick with three though, and put a pair of Prototypes with Proton Rockets and Guidance Chips on the board with them. Make that target priority question more interesting.

4 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

I haven't had a chance to drop five on the table now but I'm looking forward to it.

Its a serious amount of health to get through. Whats interesting is if your opponent brings 2 of the X-Wings down fast enough things get tricky.

It covers soooo much board though. There times when basically you can guarantee blocks and kill boxes.

The combo of BLOCK + Talon Roll is kinda cool. Thank god these things cant take advanced optics

TIE swarms still have howlrunner along to passive mod, and now possibly Iden to Nope one Attack. There are support ships and so far we’ve seen at least the U-Wing and reaper with support crew potential. The TIE Advanced between ATC and the new FCS has limited passive mods that reward sticking to a single target. I’m more worried that we’ll find out combo-Wing still exists in an ultra degenerate form than I am that we will have many games of unmodified dice Yahtzee.

Also, at least in my opinion fully modified shots shouldn’t be the default. Either they should require a seriously high investment in squad points, exceptional flying, or be the result of multiple turns of set up. We’ll see how it actually ends up though.

1 minute ago, Boom Owl said:

Its a serious amount of health to get through. Whats interesting is if your opponent brings 2 of the X-Wings down fast enough things get tricky.

It covers soooo much board though. There times when basically you can guarantee blocks and kill boxes.

The combo of BLOCK + Talon Roll is kinda cool. Thank god these things cant take advanced optics

It is a lot of health. Most current meta lists won't PS kill one before it fires, which then turns it into the primary blocker the next turn. With Flight Assist and the S-foils, you can set up a pretty wide spread against most lists and have them all converge on the same, single target from multiple angles which helps with pursuit after the initial engage. Don't fall into the TIE swarm block formation tendency, that'll just ruin pursuit and guarantee bad, unmodified shots.

I haven't faced any bombing lists yet, though, which I'm sure will be a pain. My only solace is that most things which drop bombs can also be dropped quick when facing 15 red dice.

7 minutes ago, mdl0114 said:

TIE swarms still have howlrunner along to passive mod, and now possibly Iden to Nope one Attack. There are support ships and so far we’ve seen at least the U-Wing and reaper with support crew potential. The TIE Advanced between ATC and the new FCS has limited passive mods that reward sticking to a single target. I’m more worried that we’ll find out combo-Wing still exists in an ultra degenerate form than I am that we will have many games of unmodified dice Yahtzee.

Also, at least in my opinion fully modified shots shouldn’t be the default. Either they should require a seriously high investment in squad points, exceptional flying, or be the result of multiple turns of set up. We’ll see how it actually ends up though.

Oh, I'm positive something will pop up. The nice thing though is 2.0 can tweak prices though if a combo appears to good for it's value, but I'm sure some combo will be better than dice Yahtzee, and so it should.

I agree with your opinion 100%

8 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

Oh, I'm positive something will pop up. The nice thing though is 2.0 can tweak prices though if a combo appears to good for it's value, but I'm sure some combo will be better than dice Yahtzee, and so it should.

I agree with your opinion 100%

Yeah, already the little team covenant game had the two tubes brothers where the U-Wing passed a focus to the X-Wing, which got a pre-move linked action, then a blue move to stress clear, then a regular action. A howlrunner, Iden swarm will almost certainly be better than max numbers of academy TIEs. Coordinate is everywhere, so support ships aside from the sheathipede can support even without crew. And I’m sure we’ll find out more. Synergy is fine though and luckily like you said they can adjust points if any combos start getting too good.

1 minute ago, mdl0114 said:

Yeah, already the little team covenant game had the two tubes brothers where the U-Wing passed a focus to the X-Wing, which got a pre-move linked action, then a blue move to stress clear, then a regular action. A howlrunner, Iden swarm will almost certainly be better than max numbers of academy TIEs. Coordinate is everywhere, so support ships aside from the sheathipede can support even without crew. And I’m sure we’ll find out more. Synergy is fine though and luckily like you said they can adjust points if any combos start getting too good.

The Two-Tubes Bros intrigue me: it seems strong without seeming over-the-top. Also, it seems interesting, which is the coolest part.

3 minutes ago, mdl0114 said:

Coordinate is everywhere

They really seem to like that mechanic. I still wonder if coordinate is their "real" answer to the Pilot Skill/Initiative salt.

4 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

They really seem to like that mechanic. I still wonder if coordinate is their "real" answer to the Pilot Skill/Initiative salt.

I think coordinate is just the new norm, but now it's also less rare/unique/faction-limited. So... I have no idea how to gauge that.

1 minute ago, Tlfj200 said:

The Two-Tubes Bros intrigue me: it seems strong without seeming over-the-top. Also, it seems interesting, which is the coolest part.

4 actions a turn is pretty strong but it’s limited by requiring them to be in the order of focus, BR or boost, focus, stress clear, TL or else focus, TL, move, BR or boost, focus take a stress. It’s also only available to those two ships if the U-Wing focuses, has the new intel agent, and passes a focus. And both those ships are fairly low PS/initiative ships.

So like you said, it’s a really strong combo that’s limited in enough ways that it’s probably not over the top, and it’s only good for those ships working together. So probably not over the top.

2 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

The Two-Tubes Bros intrigue me: it seems strong without seeming over-the-top. Also, it seems interesting, which is the coolest part.

I looked at that initially while watching the game and thought "that's cool and fun" and the back of my 1.0 mind was thinking "meh, not enough." As the game went on and I learned more about 2.0 as we currently know it, it seems it's going to be rare to ever have a focus + target lock in the same turn on most ships without the help of a support ship mechanic of some type. Two-Tubes combo, although at a lower Initiative, seems like it might be one of the most efficient combos right out of the gate since most of the coordinate actions are red while the Two-Tubes abilities can net Edrio full actions in 1 turn without stressing. Of course this is all reigned in by them being at Initiative 2, which is how it should be.

4 minutes ago, RStan said:

I looked at that initially while watching the game and thought "that's cool and fun" and the back of my 1.0 mind was thinking "meh, not enough." As the game went on and I learned more about 2.0 as we currently know it, it seems it's going to be rare to ever have a focus + target lock in the same turn on most ships without the help of a support ship mechanic of some type. Two-Tubes combo, although at a lower Initiative, seems like it might be one of the most efficient combos right out of the gate since most of the coordinate actions are red while the Two-Tubes abilities can net Edrio full actions in 1 turn without stressing. Of course this is all reigned in by them being at Initiative 2, which is how it should be.

Right. But there are some weaknesses: range tethering, and the u-wing MUST focus to enable it. So blocks or forcing the U-wing to turn around (or, to keep the focus, not turn around and thus not shoot), stand out.

So, if you naively joust it... maybe you deserve it. But there are some cracks in those defenses that stand out (hence why it seems neat but not over the top). But man, two-tubes x-wing will hit like a truck if you let him.

13 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

Right. But there are some weaknesses: range tethering, and the u-wing MUST focus to enable it. So blocks or forcing the U-wing to turn around (or, to keep the focus, not turn around and thus not shoot), stand out.

So, if you naively joust it... maybe you deserve it. But there are some cracks in those defenses that stand out (hence why it seems neat but not over the top). But man, two-tubes x-wing will hit like a truck if you let him.

It's init 2 so blocks are unlikely and in the demo game it had advanced sensors so turning around wasn't a problem. So I think the combo is pretty much going to happen every turn, short of a tubectomy.

Also side note, the U-Wing now that it can rotate 90 seems... dare I say it, not terrible now.

2 minutes ago, Makaze said:

It's init 2 so blocks are unlikely and in the demo game it had advanced sensors so turning around wasn't a problem. So I think the combo is pretty much going to happen every turn, short of a tubectomy.

Also side note, the U-Wing now that it can rotate 90 seems... dare I say it, not terrible now.

U Rite.

Shh.... Sh.... Just let it happen...

My initial reaction to dice mods getting nuked is that it will reward people that are good at the positioning game. So the better players will have even more of a crushing edge. I'm generally ok with that.

However, seeing the reaction of people to my son when he keeps rolling natural evades and crits (yes, crits, not hits, so many perfect rolls...), the whining about unfairness will be through the roof.

You'll need to be really good or really lucky and since only one of those can be worked on, the salt mines should be extra salty.

Just now, drjkel said:

My initial reaction to dice mods getting nuked is that it will reward people that are good at the positioning game. So the better players will have even more of a crushing edge. I'm generally ok with that.

However, seeing the reaction of people to my son when he keeps rolling natural evades and crits (yes, crits, not hits, so many perfect rolls...), the whining about unfairness will be through the roof.

You'll need to be really good or really lucky and since only one of those can be worked on, the salt mines should be extra salty.

Natties happen all the time though... the difference is that people wont get a lot of "free" stuff anymore, so they'll SEE that maneuvering for mods matters, vs now, where most ships get full mods regardless of what they did.