7 minutes ago, pheaver said:

Oh yeah, you did the right thing by not arguing with a judge. That never ends well. The most you can do is go to the Marshall and have a conversation about this not happening to anyone else in the future. Or, if the Marshall blows you off, sending an e-mail to FFG Organized Play.

In premiere events, judges are expected to know the regulations and rules pretty well. And the floor rules, if we had any.

How much would we have to pay you to show up to worlds this year, using your World Champ trophies as shields with "FLOOR RULES" painted on each of them?

Also, Real Talk-

The Armada Tournament Rules were updated on Friday, and had a change that made it so that people need to physically be at the event to be considered spectators (to be able to tell a judge about incorrect gamestates or cheating)

We all know that this is directed at X-wing (Specifically at the Canadian Nats debacle), and will be showing up in the next X-wing FAQ. How is this enforcable?

Say @Brunas is judging an event, but not really paying attention. I am watching the stream and realize that one of the two players has an illegal list (Say it's 105 points, and his opponent hasn't noticed)-

I Call Chris on the phone, and say "The guy on stream has a 105 point list" and then hang up.

As I'm not physically there, this isn't allowed- But how is that enforceable?

FFG can't take action against me if I'm not even in the same time zone as the event, and as for sanctioning me personally- What if I dial from a *67 number and Chris has no idea who it is? Or it is just someone who Chris doesn't know?

The only other way I'm seeing to prevent this would be to ignore it and let the guy play with a 105 point list, but that seems even more nonsensical- That means if you have the judge's phone number, you could cheat and just have someone call the judge before they notice to get away with it.

God ****, we need floor rules. All I can think of is just rolling back the gamestate, but that's not always doable.

@Killerardvark- You're a good rules dude- How does this work?

15 minutes ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

Also, Real Talk-

The Armada Tournament Rules were updated on Friday, and had a change that made it so that people need to physically be at the event to be considered spectators (to be able to tell a judge about incorrect gamestates or cheating)

We all know that this is directed at X-wing (Specifically at the Canadian Nats debacle), and will be showing up in the next X-wing FAQ. How is this enforcable?

Say @Brunas is judging an event, but not really paying attention. I am watching the stream and realize that one of the two players has an illegal list (Say it's 105 points, and his opponent hasn't noticed)-

I Call Chris on the phone, and say "The guy on stream has a 105 point list" and then hang up.

As I'm not physically there, this isn't allowed- But how is that enforceable?

FFG can't take action against me if I'm not even in the same time zone as the event, and as for sanctioning me personally- What if I dial from a *67 number and Chris has no idea who it is? Or it is just someone who Chris doesn't know?

The only other way I'm seeing to prevent this would be to ignore it and let the guy play with a 105 point list, but that seems even more nonsensical- That means if you have the judge's phone number, you could cheat and just have someone call the judge before they notice to get away with it.

God ****, we need floor rules. All I can think of is just rolling back the gamestate, but that's not always doable.

@Killerardvark- You're a good rules dude- How does this work?

Or, more realistically, people point it out in stream chat. I've done that, and under the new rules its not allowed. However, unless the streamer knows me, there is no way to determine exactly who I am.

1 hour ago, Do I need a Username said:

Or, more realistically, people point it out in stream chat. I've done that, and under the new rules its not allowed. However, unless the streamer knows me, there is no way to determine exactly who I am.

Let’s be direct -

under the new rules, the person noting the Parker dials at worlds would be wrong.

if the streamer didn’t step in with the video evidence, we would t just have a broken game state, we have non-malicious dial changing at worlds.

We should just all accept that this is a beer & pretzel game and meant to be played fast and loose. If the people would just stop pointing out all the badness, mistakes, and cheating, the game would look so much better! /sarcasm

Any over/under on when stream comments and/or streaming itself is banned?

1 hour ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

The Armada Tournament Rules were updated on Friday, and had a change that made it so that people need to physically be at the event to be considered spectators (to be able to tell a judge about incorrect gamestates or cheating)

This could lead to bad things.... The streamers caught cheating! Quick! Get rid of the cameras! Turn them off! This ultimately the easiest way to enforce this rule.

48 minutes ago, drjkel said:

We should just all accept that this is a beer & pretzel game and meant to be played fast and loose. If the people would just stop pointing out all the badness, mistakes, and cheating, the game would look so much better! /sarcasm

Any over/under on when stream comments and/or streaming itself is banned?

If this was serious, we'd go the professional sports route and have a booth review for all significant games/turns.

As it stands now, we're just all arm chair quarterbacks throwing Doritos at our screens in frustration.

40 minutes ago, viedit said:

If this was serious, we'd go the professional sports route and have a booth review for all significant games/turns.

As it stands now, we're just all arm chair quarterbacks throwing Doritos at our screens in frustration.

Two key points:

1. I have no idea what a "significant" turn looks like. I think it has something to do with rolling dice good?
2. I choose to throw Spaghetti at the screen in frustration when players don't K-Turn when I tell them to in twitch chat.

2 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

I have no idea what a "significant" turn looks like. I think it has something to do with rolling dice good?

It looks like "What were his intentions in changing his movement on a dial on stream like this?"

To think I've spent 2 and half years drilling in my now 8 year old son that he has to play super clean and precise because this is a serious game with standards and all and that being a kid, he's likely to get all sort of BS called on him if he's not perfect about it (I was wrong, BS is done to him). It's good to know that the grown ups have decided we won't call BS anymore, either on stream ('cause forbidden) or by judges ('cause "not mah job!").

I used to like the precision of this game. The advantage template were a funny joke borne of bad engineering (or specs). They now seem like they were intended this way, to push the envelope of what we rule we can wiggle out of.

Next up, spectators are to shut up and are not allowed to comment, even if a judge asks them what they've seen at the table. I hope you're friendly with your judges

In other news...

The Star Destroyer in the Nebula though....

Also, I love the attempted creation of suspense. We know Han, Chewie and Lando will be fine. Everyone else is probably going to die.

3 hours ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

The Armada Tournament Rules were updated on Friday, and had a change that made it so that people need to physically be at the event to be considered spectators (to be able to tell a judge about incorrect gamestates or cheating)

We all know that this is directed at X-wing (Specifically at the Canadian Nats debacle), and will be showing up in the next X-wing FAQ. How is this enforcable?

So if the "No forcing missed opportunities" is the PGS Rule, is the "No Remote Spectators" the PHeaver Rule?

39 minutes ago, kris40k said:

So if the "No forcing missed opportunities" is the PGS Rule, is the "No Remote Spectators" the PHeaver Rule?

Now we get to define physically there! The judge had to step out for a bit, so I step out to call him. Am I physically at the event still? If I'm watching the stream, but at the event on the other side of the hall, does that count?

3 minutes ago, Brunas said:

Now we get to define physically there! The judge had to step out for a bit, so I step out to call him. Am I physically at the event still? If I'm watching the stream, but at the event on the other side of the hall, does that count?

Really just makes a fella want to throw his ships away and go liberate australia...

56 minutes ago, kris40k said:

So if the "No forcing missed opportunities" is the PGS Rule, is the "No Remote Spectators" the PHeaver Rule?

this is making me imagine potentially the greatest podcast ever- Krayts, with guests Paul Heaver and PGS.

18 minutes ago, Brunas said:

Now we get to define physically there! The judge had to step out for a bit, so I step out to call him. Am I physically at the event still? If I'm watching the stream, but at the event on the other side of the hall, does that count?

I have even stupider scenarios- A Judge receives a call from a family member, who yells "Table 51 has a missed harpoon condition" and then hangs up. Do they check table 51 out? Are they forbidden from looking at table 51? Due to Pink Elephant syndrome, table 51 is definitely on the mind, so you can't just 'behave as normal'.

How TO's are actually having problems with people pointing out incorrect gamestates and cheating is mind-boggling to me.

4 hours ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

How TO's are actually having problems with people pointing out incorrect gamestates and cheating is mind-boggling to me.

Considering GreenDragoon just gave us an example of a TO having problems with pointing out an incorrect gamestates right in front of his own eyes I think we are starting to have a problem here.

If someone volunteers to be a judge (which is to be noted: it's starting to have some perks, albeit small) he needs to start taking some ******* resposability and do his bloody job.

Otherwise just don't be a judge ffs

Gave us an example of a case where the judge explicitly followed the ruling of a Marshall. Be mad at the Marshall, not the judge who has been put in that position.

2 minutes ago, Dreadai said:

Gave us an example of a case where the judge explicitly followed the ruling of a Marshall. Be mad at the Marshall, not the judge who has been put in that position.

Yes! I really want to emphasize that!

We also asked him what his unofficial opinion is and... let‘s say there was a difference.

I don‘t want to spread false information. One of us allegedly declined to play on stream, but his side of the story was different*. That reminded me how easily rumors are started and spread.

The judge in question felt he needed to tell us after, and that was well intentioned and I honestly appreciated it. Later, when we asked him again, he specifically mentioned that they got clear instructions about that**, and that ‚FFG’ (whoever he understood that to be!) wanted that.

* Cyril the Butcher met someone from firstearth (I guess Simon but don‘t know) on the toilet, and was asked whether Cyril is actually Cyril. He confirmed and said ‚but don‘t put me on the stream because you know who I am‘. But what was understood was ‚don‘t put me on the stream‘.

**correcting a game state unless the players are cheating or directly ask a judge.

6 minutes ago, Dreadai said:

Gave us an example of a case where the judge explicitly followed the ruling of a Marshall. Be mad at the Marshall, not the judge who has been put in that position.

Changing "judge" with "Marshall" makes any difference with my point?

GreenDragoon example isn't the only one. We are having a trend where judges/marshall/to are willingly to rule on fringe controversial things (the whole tractor beam stuff) while refusing to correct wrong game states when pointed out (Canadian national) or when witnessing it themselves (Hannover SOs)

If they have no trouble to go full raw and change how almost all the world has played tractor beams since their release, seeing this "non interference" bull policy really upsets me

Clearly you get very upset very easily. Having judged and reffed at a number of nerd based hobby events in the past, it really is thankless. Perks or no perks - and lets be frank, these normally equate to some alt arts, room and board, you are (for free) giving up a weekend to stand in a room with a number of people playing a game you love while you don't get to play the game.

In this instance, you have to not conflate the roles of TO (Organiser), Marshall (Head Judge) and Judge. They are a scale of authority, and our man Dragoon was talking to the bottom 'level' of judge. He follows guidance and process applied by those higher up the chain.

To influence judge methods, policies and processes you really want to start looking higher up the chain of authority rather than ragging on volunteers who are doing what their 'boss' tells them to do.

I know how hard and thankless is either TOing and Judging, I have done the latter and have buddies who did the former.

Being a thankless task can't be a free from all criticism card. If the policy of the Marshal of a large part of the European SoS is to have judges not saying anything in front of clear game state mistakes I think I can rightfully call it bull, no matter how hard is being a marshal.

Having someone who is often refusing to take responsability in such occurance as Head Judge of some of the most important tournaments of xwing is a bad thing in my opinion.

We are having a trend where both FFG (assuming the tournament FAQ for Armada will also tranlsate to xwing) and many important TOs/Marshall (while I know that for the Europe stuff it was a Marshall call, I don't know for Canada for example) seem to prefer having an incorrect game state, even at final games, rather than having someone who spot the mistake be able to fix it.

As a competitive player and partime judge this worries me and I know it also worries other players too (Heaver being the most famous example)

2 hours ago, Sunitsa said:

...while refusing to correct wrong game states when pointed out (Canadian national)...

Just pointing out that this is not a good example to support your point. This was the stream not notifying the judge of a game state issue, and by the time the judge was notified it was too late.

2 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

Later, when we asked him again, he specifically mentioned that they got clear instructions about that**, and that ‚FFG’ (whoever he understood that to be!) wanted that.

Wow.

13 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

Just pointing out that this is not a good example to support your point. This was the stream not notifying the judge of a game state issue, and by the time the judge was notified it was too late.

I thought the streamer host was one of the TOs (not a marshal or a judge, just one of the organizers). If I got it wrong, yeah that's not a good example.

Still, if FFG will keep its stance to xwing too and Official Organized Play in Europe keeps its not caring about gamestate unless otherwise called in, I think we have a problem. Am I taking crazy pills?

You guys are talking micro details of rules.....

Isnt this a Krayts thread?

4 hours ago, Dreadai said:

Gave us an example of a case where the judge explicitly followed the ruling of a Marshall. Be mad at the Marshall, not the judge who has been put in that position.

Okay, then I'm mad at the Marshall.

The Marshall was wrong, horrifically so, and if we follow his logic, the Judges are only there to basically rule in favor of someone that already knows the rules have been broken.

This is a major event, and it's sad.

As I said before, if we go down this rabbit hole, The dial-gate incident goes unchecked, which means you can even catch me BLATANTLY cheating, and judges don't intercede. Is that actually what anyone wants?

The whole point of that the spectator rule is that spectators can and should report game state infractions and cheating. Otherwise, we're basically saying tournaments do not have rules except when players at a table want them to.