28 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Again everything above is assuming you haven't brought tech specifically for Ghost/Fenn ( i.e. Expertise, Glitterstim, Palp Inquistor, Rey/Lo, Ghost, Wookies, cards & stuff...)

I think that's a bad assumption to make. All of those things are good against the field as well, and Ghost/Fenn is so powerful that you still need tactics even with counters.

All that being said, I've been testing a variety of triple Imperial squads against it. One thing I think I'm confident saying is that you shouldn't try to rush things. You should be able to kill Fenn in a turn or two, which I think is essential, because the action disparity he introduces is huge and his MOV is important for the late game.

By taking a little time, you may take a free turn of fire from the Ghost, but what you are really trying to avoid is mulitple turns of your ships strung out trading 1v1 shots.

Bear in mind this is triple Imperials, and while they can't eternally shrug off Ghost fire, they can weather it longer than a lot of lists.

@Boom Owl - when you solve that riddle, compare it to the rest of the field...

30 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Maybe the problem everyone has is that they are trying to destroy Fenn first. That might be the trap. If you bring down Fenn the first round and suffer any damage of significance to one of your ships that round your still in a ton of trouble. At that point it almost makes sense to split fire, put 4-5 dice on Fenn and put the rest of your dice on the Ghost? That way the turn Fenn dies which is usually going to be after 2-3 rounds anyway the Ghost at least doesnt have full shields.

The problem with NOT destroying Fenn first is suddenly that Ghost gets even more tanky due to your unmodified shots and the Sensor Jammer. The BTLA4 Y-Wings with TLT are an interesting response - rapid fire dice and chew the Ghost up... problem here is getting enough arcs on target after the thing boosts away, and you are relying on some dice luck.

Is Palp-Aces a reasonable response? I've only flown the list like three times, many months ago, so I'm far from 'experienced' with this list let alone 'good' with it. The theory of staying out of arc though and being able to ignore the TLT fire seems to have merit... though eventually dice fail, right? And it's still a damage race because that shuttle sure as heck can't dodge arcs.

I like the theory of a swarm taking out the Ghost through blocks and such... don't think it's a valid strategy though. The field will murder it.

Honestly, I'm just flying Wedge/Cracken/Nym or a bunch of TLT Y-Wings or something else fun till something breaks up the meta. The only reason I survived the previous Ghost metas was A) I wasn't serious B) my opponents did silly things to give me chances and allow me to feel like I was still in the game.

17 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

I think that's a bad assumption to make. All of those things are good against the field as well, and Ghost/Fenn is so powerful that you still need tactics even with counters.

All that being said, I've been testing a variety of triple Imperial squads against it. One thing I think I'm confident saying is that you shouldn't try to rush things. You should be able to kill Fenn in a turn or two, which I think is essential, because the action disparity he introduces is huge and his MOV is important for the late game.

By taking a little time, you may take a free turn of fire from the Ghost, but what you are really trying to avoid is mulitple turns of your ships strung out trading 1v1 shots.

Bear in mind this is triple Imperials, and while they can't eternally shrug off Ghost fire, they can weather it longer than a lot of lists.

Agreed. I guess I was just holding that aside just to think of the matchup more simplistically to kick start a conversation here.

I know I can beat Ghost/Fenn with Palp Aces. Consistently. Same with Wookies or Trip Defenders who have the net HP/Defense to not melt right away.

RAC/Lo, Rey/Lo, its all doable.

I am more specifically interested in how a player running a Trip Imperial or Scum or **** even some Rebel thing thats bad against the field like you described can make it a 40/60 match.

I get what your saying about not wanting to rush things.

The biggest issue is that killing Fenn in one or two rounds is very rarely enough.

You have to leave those two rounds with all 3 ships firing the next turn.

The list is beatlable. No doubt about that.

I'm just still not sure the in game tactics against Ghost/Fenn are ever measurable more important than just getting pretty lucky with my dice. (*I know that makes me bad...but does it?)

35 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

This probably sounds dumb but the absolute best strategy for dealing with Ghost Fenn may just be to completely sell out on the Ghost at Range 1. Take your chances with the 5 dice primary instead of the TLT, and ignore Fenn?

Maybe it does sound dumb, but is a range 1 shot of Whisper or FangFenn an autoloss? Not really. A Ghost is just 16HP Fenn/Whisper instead of 4 HP, and reliant on other defense than 4 green dice+focus. What if Whisper couldn‘t arc dodge? Would you just joust it and take the damage?

9 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

@Boom Owl - when you solve that riddle, compare it to the rest of the field...

The problem with NOT destroying Fenn first is suddenly that Ghost gets even more tanky due to your unmodified shots and the Sensor Jammer. The BTLA4 Y-Wings with TLT are an interesting response - rapid fire dice and chew the Ghost up... problem here is getting enough arcs on target after the thing boosts away, and you are relying on some dice luck.

Is Palp-Aces a reasonable response? I've only flown the list like three times, many months ago, so I'm far from 'experienced' with this list let alone 'good' with it. The theory of staying out of arc though and being able to ignore the TLT fire seems to have merit... though eventually dice fail, right? And it's still a damage race because that shuttle sure as heck can't dodge arcs.

I like the theory of a swarm taking out the Ghost through blocks and such... don't think it's a valid strategy though. The field will murder it.

Honestly, I'm just flying Wedge/Cracken/Nym or a bunch of TLT Y-Wings or something else fun till something breaks up the meta. The only reason I survived the previous Ghost metas was A) I wasn't serious B) my opponents did silly things to give me chances and allow me to feel like I was still in the game.

I can say with confidence that Palp Aces is a great response.

In all my matches against it its been the most consistent option by far.

2 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Maybe it does sound dumb, but is a range 1 shot of Whisper or FangFenn an autoloss? Not really. A Ghost is just 16HP Fenn/Whisper instead of 4 HP, and reliant on other defense than 4 green dice+focus. What if Whisper couldn‘t arc dodge? Would you just joust it and take the damage?

I actually kitted out a Whisper list that would have worked but eventually just decided it was only good because of RAC Palpatine and our lord and savior Kylo Ren.

56 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

This probably sounds dumb but the absolute best strategy for dealing with Ghost Fenn may just be to completely sell out on the Ghost at Range 1. Take your chances with the 5 dice primary instead of the TLT

Just a quick note - this is completely the opposite of dumb, and we've all watched ghost players make terrible decisions because how could 5 dice do less than 4 tlt shots?!?!?

http://xwing.gateofstorms.net/alpha/?q=EwEAAAjQgAACAEAAAAgAAAIAAAA

http://xwing.gateofstorms.net/alpha/?q=EwEAAAhIgAAJEEAAAAgAAAIAAAA

1 minute ago, Brunas said:

Just a quick note - this is completely the opposite of dumb, and we've all watched ghost players make terrible decisions because how could 5 dice do less than 4 tlt shots?!?!?

http://xwing.gateofstorms.net/alpha/?q=EwEAAAjQgAACAEAAAAgAAAIAAAA

http://xwing.gateofstorms.net/alpha/?q=EwEAAAhIgAAJEEAAAAgAAAIAAAA

TLT does more even if you remove Palpatine. Just barely though. The extremes are stronger for the primary: higher chance of 0 and of 4 damage compared to TLT.
It's interesting to note that both stay extremely close (difference below 0.04) when removing the evade token and when going down to 2 agility.

That means jousting the Ghost in range 1 is the better choice if you have 3 agility + focus + evade, and probably still better if you're at 2 agility with anything from 0 to 1 focus and evade? I'm definitely surprised, but the math sure looks like it.

6 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

TLT does more even if you remove Palpatine. Just barely though. The extremes are stronger for the primary: higher chance of 0 and of 4 damage compared to TLT.
It's interesting to note that both stay extremely close (difference below 0.04) when removing the evade token and when going down to 2 agility.

That means jousting the Ghost in range 1 is the better choice if you have 3 agility + focus + evade, and probably still better if you're at 2 agility with anything from 0 to 1 focus and evade? I'm definitely surprised, but the math sure looks like it.

Proves out in logical practice right.

If I have a 4 hull ship with 3 green dice and only a focus I am 100% better off taking one 5 dice shot to the gut than 4 guaranteed damage from the TLT. Since Fenn is going to take that focus anyway!

Extreme example but I think it speaks to "where" on the board you want to be against the ghost? Even setting aside the math.

Getting all up in its business seems like a legit strategy.

You know what would make this hard though? If the Ghost had a way to always perfectly modify those 5 dice.

21 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Getting all up in its business seems like a legit strategy.

A small but catastrophic risk remains though: you can't stay anywhere* in the range 1 bubble. The wrong spot means that you are too far (range 2) and get the worst of all, or you are too close and can't block all boosts. Then you get 0 shots off yourself, but a 5dice primary out of the back after the PS11 boost. Unless you're PS11 yourself of course.

21 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

You know what would make this hard though? If the Ghost had a way to always perfectly modify those 5 dice.

Maul+Ezra is already included in the numbers @Brunas and I mentioned.

Which leads me to another thought: staying stressed is still pretty bad for the Ghost because it then has to fly green to get the PS11 coordinate. A single primary has still a better chance of missing entirely than 4 (or 2) TLT shots. Which makes the range 1 joust again better

edit: *that‘s confusing. I meant that you can‘t just accept any spot at range 1. instead you have to make sure to be able to shoot the Ghost even after boosts, or prevent the boosts, but also make sure that you won‘t be too far away. Once more it takes much more skill to play against the list than with it.

34 minutes ago, Brunas said:

Just a quick note - this is completely the opposite of dumb, and we've all watched ghost players make terrible decisions because how could 5 dice do less than 4 tlt shots?!?!?

http://xwing.gateofstorms.net/alpha/?q=EwEAAAjQgAACAEAAAAgAAAIAAAA

http://xwing.gateofstorms.net/alpha/?q=EwEAAAhIgAAJEEAAAAgAAAIAAAA

What I found really scary is this math.

Assumption 1 - Ghost Fenn (standard Maul/Ezra build). Has an evade token.

Assumption 2 - Two ghosts attacking it. Both Ghosts are at range 3 and have a target lock.

Average hits: 2.57. On 8 dice. With no Fenn shennanigans. If Fenn locks down one of them it's 1.69 average. Ouch.

Switch that to focus and now you are doing 4.25. If Fenn Hotshots one and locks down the other it's .9 hits. On a zero agility ship.

He's throwing 4.65 damage back at you.

I watched the Mountain View California regional and Drew Bishop went something like 40 minutes against a Triple Defender (Swam Vessy, PTL Ryad, Delta) list before he had a shield off of his Chopper ghost. It's batshit crazy how much damage mitigation is in this list.

2 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

A small but catastrophic risk remains though: you can't stay anywhere in the range 1 bubble. The wrong spot means that you are too far (range 2) and get the worst of all, or you are too close and can't block all boosts. Then you get 0 shots off yourself, but a 5dice primary out of the back after the PS11 boost. Unless you're PS11 yourself of course.

There is a very specific spot just inside Range 1 to block all potential boosts. I have been there twice and won both games. Thats as far as I have gone with my anecdote based analysis.

10 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

There is a very specific spot just inside Range 1 to block all potential boosts. I have been there twice and won both games. Thats as far as I have gone with my anecdote based analysis.

There's some sort of meme opportunity here with Countdown and the phrase "If I fits, I sits!" (Unless you bring Stressbot Fenn then I'm super out!)

Help me Genius/Trajectory Sim! You're my only hope!

Decisions are hard.

Evade + Sensor Jammer + 0 Green vs 5 Red No Mods

Focus + 2 Green vs 5 Red No Mods

44 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

There is a very specific spot just inside Range 1 to block all potential boosts. I have been there twice and won both games. Thats as far as I have gone with my anecdote based analysis.

Take the big rocks, not debris.

2 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

Take the big rocks, not debris.

Also, big rocks make Sloopy Rey + Kanan sad.

11 minutes ago, viedit said:

Also, big rocks make Sloopy Rey + Kanan sad.

My strategy agans tFenn/Ghost will be: small ships, big rocks, kill Fenn, turtle up and run.

1 minute ago, FTS Gecko said:

My strategy agans tFenn/Ghost will be: small ships, big rocks, kill Fenn, turtle up and run.

As someone that plays TLT + EU ghosts...good luck with that. Slamming gunboats didn't stand a chance. After he chases you down he's got 4 highly modded TLT shots to de-turtle you.

5 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

My strategy agans tFenn/Ghost will be: small ships, big rocks, kill Fenn, turtle up and run.

The rocks won't save you, and there is no where to run.

Every game against Ghost/Fenn that I have won feels like this scene once its on half pts since most of the time its ahead on pts at that point.

7 minutes ago, viedit said:

Thumbs up for Dodgeball ref.

Triple x7 Defenders with Stealth Device, stacking focus/evade purely for defense have a little bit more staying power than Gunboats,though. Especially when flying to a: deliberately bump/block the Ghost, b: circle obstacles, c: rotate targets and/or d: escape to range 3.

I'm not going to say it'll work every time, but the goal is to make life as frustrating for the Ghost/Fenn player as they are for the rest of the field.

How the **** did no one recognize the Milton impersonation?

2 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:

My strategy agans tFenn/Ghost will be: small ships, big rocks, kill Fenn, turtle up and run.

There are very few things that can outrun that Ghost. For the rest, may the dice gods be with you!

4 hours ago, viedit said:

What I found really scary is this math.

Assumption 1 - Ghost Fenn (standard Maul/Ezra build). Has an evade token.

Assumption 2 - Two ghosts attacking it. Both Ghosts are at range 3 and have a target lock.

Average hits: 2.57. On 8 dice. With no Fenn shennanigans. If Fenn locks down one of them it's 1.69 average. Ouch.

Switch that to focus and now you are doing 4.25. If Fenn Hotshots one and locks down the other it's .9 hits. On a zero agility ship.

He's throwing 4.65 damage back at you.

I watched the Mountain View California regional and Drew Bishop went something like 40 minutes against a Triple Defender (Swam Vessy, PTL Ryad, Delta) list before he had a shield off of his Chopper ghost. It's batshit crazy how much damage mitigation is in this list.

This is the saddest part.... how the h**l did FFG think damage output so high should have the ability to mitigate with such power. The two should be exclusive, not married.

38 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

This is the saddest part.... how the h**l did FFG think damage output so high should have the ability to mitigate with such power. The two should be exclusive, not married.

I don't know, the TIE Phantom has 4 dice as well, and has 4 defense dice, but it isn't nearly as bad. Conversely, TLT.