1 minute ago, Tlfj200 said:

I mean, that's my personal suspicion, because see anecdotally that ghost fenn is a REALLY small % of the field (usually 2-5 show up). But it's a hypothesis that Im not sure we can truly answer with this kind of data - only project rationalization on.

Certainly true. I'm like the annoying audience member at a conference presentation that says "well, your data could mean X, Y, or Z instead of your conclusions, but you'd have to do 18 months of research by a quality graduate student to test each possibility I suggest".

4 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

There's a serious difference here, though. In Magic, making, and perhaps as importantly deploying game winning combos is the literal point of the game. Even if something is OP, its playijg the game (much like Paratanni). Ghost/Fenn is OP, but I expect if it were were as much X-wing as Paratanni, it would have the same kind of ridiculous representation that Paratanni did. If it were fun and required a touch more than a little skill, I bet we'd see even more of it.

I really didn't mean my comment to be taken that I want xwing to be like mtg. I absolutely don't.

Is the expanded Banned List posted anywhere, for that 10-man Objectives Tournament mentioned toward the top of the 'cast?

If not, is it handy to post? (Possibly he lists it ... I'll get back to it when I commute home today.)

2 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

Is the expanded Banned List posted anywhere, for that 10-man Objectives Tournament mentioned toward the top of the 'cast?

If not, is it handy to post? (Possibly he lists it ... I'll get back to it when I commute home today.)

I don't think Nam-My has a forum account, I'll ask him and let you know if it's somewhere convenient.

2 minutes ago, Brunas said:

I don't think Nam-My has a forum account, I'll ask him and let you know if it's somewhere convenient.

Ban List:

• - Minefield mapper
• - Trajectory Simulator
• - Han Solo Pilot (HoTR)
• - Seismic Torpedoes
• - Twin Laser Turret
• - R2D2 Astromech
• - Bomblet Generator
• - Captured Tie
• Rebel Fenn Rau pilot

1 minute ago, Tlfj200 said:

Captured Tie

Heh... I seem to recall mentioning that Captured TIE might break objective play. Not that it would, but there was a risk.

19 minutes ago, catachanninja said:

I disagree, krayts on top.

I mean, my head isn't in a great space right now, so its likely I'm totally off, but I'm basically trying to guess what people will bring in that field. I specifically agree that plotting for a single list is a bad call. The options I'm considering are both broadly strong against the nature of lists I expect to see. I'm strongly considering not going, but i miss Zach, nick and Chico, so I'm gonna drag myself out there

Why? So you can hopefully hit the list you hard counter one time in swiss? Just play the best list.

4 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

I mean, that's my personal suspicion, because see anecdotally that ghost fenn is a REALLY small % of the field (usually 2-5 show up). But it's a hypothesis that Im not sure we can truly answer with this kind of data - only project rationalization on.

There is at least some level of irrational gentlemen's agreement happening. Our regional was pre-FAQ and allowed Genius/TS. We all knew it was crazy good, we all practiced against it, we all teched against it, and we all absolutely knew it was going to be a massive chunk of the field.

But we were all wrong since only 2 people brought it (one placed 2nd and the other just off cut but only because they mirrored in last round of swiss) and every single person I talked to acknowledged that it was a better list than the one they brought and bringing it would have increased their chance to win. But no one, including me, wanted to be "that guy". The guy that brings the list that we all know is exploiting a gaping and unintended hole in the rules and will pretty soon be FAQed out of existence. The guy that is here to win, not to have fun and if my fun doesn't matter then yours sure as **** doesn't either

To some degree that's probably a good thing, it speaks well of the community that we all haven't become so WAAC that those considerations no longer even register. But it also papers over problems with the game, ensuring they'll never get fixed, while letting people who don't have such petty mortal concerns as fun take a dump all over everyone else.

2 minutes ago, Makaze said:

To some degree that's probably a good thing, it speaks well of the community that we all haven't become so WAAC that those considerations no longer even register. But it also papers over problems with the game, ensuring they'll never get fixed, while letting people who don't have such petty mortal concerns as fun take a dump all over everyone else.

Ah, the wacky world of externalities.

1 hour ago, catachanninja said:

Okay guys, im just gonna crowdsource what I take to Michigan from y'all. Do I take the best list that has a good ghost fenn matchup(foss aces) or, since people are bringing the "counter to the counter" with bombs do I go 4d chess and make those people see what x wing really doesn't look like and bring ego

Ego with Jess Pava M9G8 and a Tactician Lowhrick seems legit right now and is pretty **** wholesome if you think about it on a comparative philosophical level. Though I have no idea how rebels work and probably should never offer advice on rebel anything ever. Personally, I am very close to making the switch from Trip Imp Aces to Palp Aces to salvage my enthusiasm for the competitive game until the Krennic Reaper drops. It seems like the most interesting challenge in X-Wing besides low PS harpoon swarms. Its decent against the field, rewards good decisions, forgives "some" mistakes, etc.

Whatever you decide please make sure to record an entire 2 hour Battle Report episode about your experience in Michigan.

Battle Reports are the best form of podcast content. The listeners deserve more battle reports.

Actually all future Episodes should just be battle reports.

#BattleReporter

2 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

Ah, the wacky world of externalities.

You're getting my econ degree all riled up.

1 minute ago, hawk32 said:

You're getting my econ degree all riled up.

I wonder what % of Krayt listeners took economics classes at some point in their life. Its probably high.

2 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

I wonder what % of Krayt listeners took economics classes at some point in their life. Its probably high.

Probably correlates highly to the % that have time to **** post.

8 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

Ban List:

• - Minefield mapper
• - Trajectory Simulator
• - Han Solo Pilot (HoTR)
• - Seismic Torpedoes
• - Twin Laser Turret
• - R2D2 Astromech
• - Bomblet Generator
• - Captured Tie
• Rebel Fenn Rau pilot

I'm not sure I get Han Solo (this Han should be good somewhere, right?) or R2-D2 (isn't regen one of the things Objectives fixes?). I'm a little iffy on TLT and Captured TIE (are they genuine problems in the format?), and I think Seismic Torps just needs to be noted as not working on objectives that can't otherwise be destroyed.

Don't get me wrong, I affirmatively applaud customizing local events purely for fun ... I'm just trying to be sure that is what this is. (As opposed to a feeling that new Han actually damages the format, for instance.)

2 minutes ago, hawk32 said:

Probably correlates highly to the % that have time to **** post.

1 hour ago, Kdubb said:

So has it been discussed enough yet that it seems the tippy top boogie man list in every meta is consistently deemed “unfun” to play? Are we sure this isn’t just another way how scrubs try to demonize those players who choose to fly it? Because I refuse to believe that players willingly give up any chance at fun for 12 hours+ of their life just so they can say they won something of relatively little value in comparison to the time invested.

Winning is a powerful drug, and it sure as **** helps with the retconning after the fact.

I vividly remeber watching a game where a well known player who is generally very stoic while playing was up against a list that was widely considered unfun, demonstrate clearly through his body language and his words that he was not enjoying himself at all. He was clearly titled and making mistakes, but still won. After the game somone asked him what he thought of the game and he said it was a fun game and he really enjoyed it. I don't think he was lying, I think when he won his brain made happy chemicals and he forgot all about it.

HOTR Han breaks things in weird ways that aren't fun with courier droid, e.g. deploying him running into an objective and making it more or less impossible to get in range of it to do actions. It's probably not a good strategy, but it and seismic torps were axed because it's more effort than it's worth to clear it.

I'm not convinced captured TIE is a problem, I like just giving objectives APL more than banning more cards honestly.

1 minute ago, hawk32 said:

Probably correlates highly to the % that have time to **** post.

17 minutes ago, hawk32 said:

Why? So you can hopefully hit the list you hard counter one time in swiss? Just play the best list.

I think you're missing what I said, because i fundamentally agree with you.

4 minutes ago, Brunas said:

I'm not convinced captured TIE is a problem, I like just giving objectives APL more than banning more cards honestly.

You can still do donuts around the objective, bumping exacerbated the issue by making it easy but the core problem was that Ashokha could interact with objectives and there was literally nothing the other player could do to stop her. I'd say don't ban it but add an objectives only errata that says while equipped you don't count as being in range and can't take actions to effect objectives. And that you can discard the card as a free action on your turn.

1 minute ago, catachanninja said:

I think you're missing what I said, because i fundamentally agree with you.

Probably... it's a snow day... I'm rather drunk.

2 minutes ago, Makaze said:

You can still do donuts around the objective, bumping exacerbated the issue by making it easy but the core problem was that Ashokha could interact with objectives and there was literally nothing the other player could do to stop her. I'd say don't ban it but add an objectives only errata that says while equipped you don't count as being in range and can't take actions to effect objectives. And that you can discard the card as a free action on your turn.

Well sure there is - have something at least PS9. That's not a particularly good answer, but I don't think ashoka is even a problem. We have one data point of it doing well (not even winning). I'm much more nervous of over banning things than I am ashoka ruining the format.

1 minute ago, Brunas said:

Well sure there is - have something at least PS9. That's not a particularly good answer, but I don't think ashoka is even a problem. We have one data point of it doing well (not even winning). I'm much more nervous of over banning things than I am ashoka ruining the format.

I meant once the game starts . Requiring specific list requirements to be competitive would seem to be something objective format was explicitly created to prevent, no?

More data required is absolutely a perfectly acceptable response though

20 minutes ago, Brunas said:

Well sure there is - have something at least PS9. That's not a particularly good answer, but I don't think ashoka is even a problem. We have one data point of it doing well (not even winning). I'm much more nervous of over banning things than I am ashoka ruining the format.

My likes aren't working.

Captured TIE is tricky. It's not super powerful in any regards, but it can be used to pull a more expensive ship out of your opponent's formation specifically to float around uselessly near an objective to counter control. It's a gamble, but it forces bad choices - if you don't have the PS to take shots at it. Ahsoka is also useful for passing that wonderful last action (take that Fenn) so even if the gamble doesn't pay off a list can take advantage of the cheap little TIE. Probably not 20 points worth, but it's better than zilch.

I hate banning as well, but I don't think APL on the objectives is an answer. It takes the brainless way Ryan flew it out of the occasion equation, but he still could just circle around the objective. It just takes a little more thought, but not enough to hurt him through the day.

25 minutes ago, Brunas said:

Well sure there is - have something at least PS9. That's not a particularly good answer, but I don't think ashoka is even a problem. We have one data point of it doing well (not even winning). I'm much more nervous of over banning things than I am ashoka ruining the format.

Stupid question, but thinking about the discussion on the latest podcast about bumping. You guys talked about putting ion/APL on the objective. In playtesting did you guys consider not awarding points for bumping the objective? Price is right rules...within range 1 you are good. Range 0 (aka bump) you went too far and are out of the showcase showdown.