6 hours ago, defkhan1 said:

Outryder Cup just finished (Columbus won yay) and all of my matches were surprisingly wholesome. Every standard game I played was just 80 degree arced ships on the table. It was great fun. Also I faced literally one ship that moved before Kylo, everyone else out-PS or outbid him. But that's fine because it turns out Kylo is really good at blocking things when he moves first.

By far the most wholesome game I saw was Dion's Kyloboats vs. 3DPD. So wholesome in fact that they went time without losing a ship on either side and had to final salvo...I'm not sure how that happened either. Here's what the last turn of the game looked like:

Weird. It's almost like, when people play to have fun, they don't really like a bunch of regen, defense stacking, bomb, or turrets?

@Tlfj200 listener 4 was the best podcast I ever heard. Mad props for that!

But I can't get with your mindset and behaviour for the game lately. If you don't like the game play something else. "Unfun" is the defining calling card of the scrub and you are throwing this around every where.

I don't mind when idiots say things are overpowered or unfun or not what the game is supposed to be. But you are an x-wing celebrity whether you like it or not and your opinion caries across to tons of players. So if you don't like it don't play, leave it and get out. But hanging around and souring up other people affects my gaming experience so please stop it.

3 minutes ago, dolfiejay said:

@Tlfj200 listener 4 was the best podcast I ever heard. Mad props for that!

But I can't get with your mindset and behaviour for the game lately. If you don't like the game play something else. "Unfun" is the defining calling card of the scrub and you are throwing this around every where.

I don't mind when idiots say things are overpowered or unfun or not what the game is supposed to be. But you are an x-wing celebrity whether you like it or not and your opinion caries across to tons of players. So if you don't like it don't play, leave it and get out. But hanging around and souring up other people affects my gaming experience so please stop it.

He is looking at playing something else.

Everyone has an attachment to this game, so we care passionately and would rather see it fixed rather than move onto something else. But the current state of the game has one of the best minds and coolest people in the community looking elsewhere as a hobby.

Just now, Tlfj200 said:

Weird. It's almost like, when people play to have fun, they don't really like a bunch of regen, defense stacking, bomb, or turrets?

OC isn't the same level as a regional or anything but we do take it pretty seriously. If only to show up those Pittsburgh scrubs. But it was a lot of fun regardless. There were a number of turrets and bombs and things elsewhere, I just had the good fortune to not get paired up against any of them.

18 minutes ago, catachanninja said:

He is looking at playing something else.

Everyone has an attachment to this game, so we care passionately and would rather see it fixed rather than move onto something else. But the current state of the game has one of the best minds and coolest people in the community looking elsewhere as a hobby.

Calling things unfun is not going to fix anything. I'm only slugging this out cause I'm pretty drunk. This applies to you to as well zak but at least you are not trying to convince the community that its all "unfun" now.

Everyone does have an attachment to this game, and I am no exception. I want the game to live past these cries. If travis does get out good for him but what mess did he make before he left that the rest of us have to clean up?

4 minutes ago, dolfiejay said:

Calling things unfun is not going to fix anything. I'm only slugging this out cause I'm pretty drunk. This applies to you to as well zak but at least you are not trying to convince the community that its all "unfun" now.

Everyone does have an attachment to this game, and I am no exception. I want the game to live past these cries. If travis does get out good for him but what mess did he make before he left that the rest of us have to clean up?

I mean, I think you’re probably right.

I’ve mentioned this to the other guys, too. It’s probably best I don’t talk about it, because I suspect I like a very different than most other people (as empirically shown by the state of current X-Wing, and the strength by which they cling to it).

i think it is probably best I move on and leave this community, which is sad, because I really enjoyed it and the game. But c’est la vie.

11 minutes ago, dolfiejay said:

Calling things unfun is not going to fix anything. I'm only slugging this out cause I'm pretty drunk. This applies to you to as well zak but at least you are not trying to convince the community that its all "unfun" now.

Everyone does have an attachment to this game, and I am no exception. I want the game to live past these cries. If travis does get out good for him but what mess did he make before he left that the rest of us have to clean up?

But, for what it's worth, I also do not have to pretend this is "good" or "skillful" x-wing and play.

I cannot argue or contend with peoples' feelings, but I can absolutely contend with the idea that what we're seeing is objectively good play.

There you go again. So peeps that play broken **** are not "good" or "skillful" to your standard, gothca.

2 minutes ago, dolfiejay said:

There you go again. So peeps that play broken **** are not "good" or "skillful" to your standard, gothca.

No, you are fundamentally misunderstanding (or at least conflating) what I'm saying.

It's that bomb/turret/regen/defense-stack-wing is not only not fun, but those mechanics "smooth over" the fundamentals of the game.

Turrets: Diminish the importance of arcs, and thus to an extend dials.

Regen: Diminish taking damage, meaning the ship can stay in "bad" situations longer, or make up for poor decisions (dials). Damage doesn't "stick".

Defense Stacking: similar to regen.

Bombs: arc-less threat (and better for "kiting," meaning your arc isn't involved); reduces where/what your opponent can do (diminishing their dial).

Given that the game was sold as a dog-fighting game, the fact that these are dominant strategies (rather than consistently guessing your opponent's dials and decisions) is an issue.

10 minutes ago, dolfiejay said:

There you go again. So peeps that play broken **** are not "good" or "skillful" to your standard, gothca.

So, I'm not raging at people playing good lists - I highly suggest they do.

I'm upset at what "good" means for the "good lists". It's dominated by these unfun, and uninteresting, strategies.

4 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

This is the problem I have with you. You don't like the game anymore because you think it should be something else. Turrets, regen, defense stacking and bombs are part of the game now. Around my area we embrace this and try and beat it because that is the game now. Pro tip we still enjoy it.

You think it has become no skill you have 2 decent options. Abuse it, win everything with the no skill tactics to prove thats what it has become. Or let the rest of us enjoy it without trying to sour it up.

1 minute ago, dolfiejay said:

This is the problem I have with you. You don't like the game anymore because you think it should be something else. Turrets, regen, defense stacking and bombs are part of the game now. Around my area we embrace this and try and beat it because that is the game now. Pro tip we still enjoy it.

You think it has become no skill you have 2 decent options. Abuse it, win everything with the no skill tactics to prove thats what it has become. Or let the rest of us enjoy it without trying to sour it up.

I'm sorry you're upset, but, there's a third option you're ignoring:

You do not have to listen to me, or read my thoughts here?

@Tlfj200

Just curious. Chris has gone on record saying that he would play the game whether or not it were Star Wars, with the implication, I think, that it would still have to be a good game.

Where do you (or anyone else, really) stand on the issue? The Star Wars IP seems to complicate a lot of things, like FAQ timeliness, the expectations of certain ships and characters, etc. Say some game company with a made up scifi IP came out with "X-wingish 2.0" that had fixed all the problems you see in X-wing, is that something you're interested in? Even taking into account the almost unavoidable drop in player base due to being non-Star Wars.

If you were some nowhere scrub like me sure. But you're not. You're Travis the Johnson Johnson. You are an xwing celebrity whether you like it or not and peeps follow your lead and listen to what you say. So yeah sure I don't have to listen to you but tons of members of the xwing community globally is going to listen to you and not me.

I still want to play this game next week and you don't. I don't give a **** if you wanna play or not but your words and actions affect the guys that I'm going to play with in the future.

8 minutes ago, dolfiejay said:

This is the problem I have with you. You don't like the game anymore because you think it should be something else. Turrets, regen, defense stacking and bombs are part of the game now. Around my area we embrace this and try and beat it because that is the game now. Pro tip we still enjoy it.

You think it has become no skill you have 2 decent options. Abuse it, win everything with the no skill tactics to prove thats what it has become. Or let the rest of us enjoy it without trying to sour it up.

For what it's worth, it's probably worth noting that the Listener Series™ is definitely separate from any of my personal views, or that of the regular podcast.

I'm glad it was useful, and if an interesting topic comes up in the future, I will try and do another one.

I hope that people are able to separate and distinct the two from one another.

4 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

@Tlfj200

Just curious. Chris has gone on record saying that he would play the game whether or not it were Star Wars, with the implication, I think, that it would still have to be a good game.

Where do you (or anyone else, really) stand on the issue? The Star Wars IP seems to complicate a lot of things, like FAQ timeliness, the expectations of certain ships and characters, etc. Say some game company with a made up scifi IP came out with "X-wingish 2.0" that had fixed all the problems you see in X-wing, is that something you're interested in? Even taking into account the almost unavoidable drop in player base due to being non-Star Wars.

If this game was just Top Gun or Crimson Skies or Freespace the miniatures game id probably play it even more to be honest.

Dang I wish all 3 of those existed!!

Id own and play all of them.

Just now, dolfiejay said:

If you were some nowhere scrub like me sure. But you're not. You're Travis the Johnson Johnson. You are an xwing celebrity whether you like it or not and peeps follow your lead and listen to what you say. So yeah sure I don't have to listen to you but tons of members of the xwing community globally is going to listen to you and not me.

I still want to play this game next week and you don't. I don't give a **** if you wanna play or not but your words and actions affect the guys that I'm going to play with in the future.

I am honestly and genuinely still wrestling with that. I do actually take this feedback and reflect on it, so regardless of any future decision I make, I am listening, and appreciate your input (even if we disagree at the moment).

3 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

@Tlfj200

Just curious. Chris has gone on record saying that he would play the game whether or not it were Star Wars, with the implication, I think, that it would still have to be a good game.

Where do you (or anyone else, really) stand on the issue? The Star Wars IP seems to complicate a lot of things, like FAQ timeliness, the expectations of certain ships and characters, etc. Say some game company with a made up scifi IP came out with "X-wingish 2.0" that had fixed all the problems you see in X-wing, is that something you're interested in? Even taking into account the almost unavoidable drop in player base due to being non-Star Wars.

Um... I think now that I'm in, it doesn't matter as much that it's "Star Wars," but I think the branding does matter.

First, and probably most importantly, I think there are a lot of people who tried it BECAUSE it was a Star Wars game, and likely stuck around because it's a good game. If it were something else, I think the initial buy-in for new players/attracting new players would be harder (possibly much harder, but I really don't know).

Further, there are probably enough people (and likely myself), that do enjoy the branding/theme of the game. I'd still play otherwise, but the thematic shell adds to the experience. Like, I care less about "real life" planes, but could get over it if the game was good.


All of that said, really, the "critical mass" is what carries the game forward - the fact it's "big enough" that you can usually find games to play at stores, and enough people come to kits, etc. Without it... I dont think I'd be playing.

3 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

I am honestly and genuinely still wrestling with that. I do actually take this feedback and reflect on it, so regardless of any future decision I make, I am listening, and appreciate your input (even if we disagree at the moment).

Well, if you are taking feedback, yourself, I have to say that its a good thing that well-known individuals in the community are letting it be known that they are losing their enjoyment in the game with the direction its going. Event organizers, podcasters, etc., the people that put their own passion and energy in keeping the community together and moving have the ear of the player as well as the ears of the developers. To counter @dolfiejay's assessment, people slipping away quietly is what will kill the game. FFG needs to hear that there is a problem before they just see a decline in sales numbers from people shutting up, walking away and not buying anymore. That way they can fix what is broken, or unfun, and prevent the loss of players who just quit and walk away without giving the developers any useful feedback.

39 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

I’ve mentioned this to the other guys, too. It’s probably best I don’t talk about it, because I suspect I like a very different than most other people (as empirically shown by the state of current X-Wing, and the strength by which they cling to it).

Maybe I'm being idealistic, but I actually believe a lot of the people playing strong lists (that have those elements you mention as subverting the core dogfighting of xwing) would rather be playing lists that are more about planning and dials but the fact that they want to be competiive wins over, and that's often supported by most of the people I talk to. IE, what people are actually playing in competitive play doesn't necessarily show evidence of what people like about X-wing.

I'm not sure if that matters in the end, but I'm just saying that I don't think the lists you see really tell you as much about the people that are playing them or what direction they'd like to see X-wing move. Though, I'm more idealistic about the community than I am about most current design choices which I think have lost a bit of sight of how interesting the core mechanics of arcs and planning are (and have for some time).

Just now, AlexW said:

Maybe I'm being idealistic, but I actually believe a lot of the people playing strong lists (that have those elements you mention as subverting the core dogfighting of xwing) would rather be playing lists that are more about planning and dials but the fact that they want to be competiive wins over, and that's often supported by most of the people I talk to. IE, what people are actually playing in competitive play doesn't necessarily show evidence of what people like about X-wing.

I'm not sure if that matters in the end, but I'm just saying that I don't think the lists you see really tell you as much about the people that are playing them or what direction they'd like to see X-wing move. Though, I'm more idealistic about the community than I am about most current design choices which I think have lost a bit of sight of how interesting the core mechanics of arcs and planning are (and have for some time).

I think that's undeniable. Almost every top player has been saying for the last 2 years that all the top lists aren't really enjoyable to fly. Probably the only one I've heard over that span has been Paratanni.

8 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

All of that said, really, the "critical mass" is what carries the game forward - the fact it's "big enough" that you can usually find games to play at stores, and enough people come to kits, etc. Without it... I dont think I'd be playing.

That's the killer, and I suspect it's the biggest reason play took off in the first place. We're basically in the first generation of a game type (if we call Wings of War generation 0) alongside the star Trek and D&D ones. There are bound to be optimizations made to the format, but if the only truly viable game is attached to the star Wars IP, we're stuck waiting for FFG instead of an enterprising developer to wedge their way in as Privateer did to Games Workshop.

That makes me a little sad.

1 hour ago, dolfiejay said:

Calling things unfun is not going to fix anything. I'm only slugging this out cause I'm pretty drunk. This applies to you to as well zak but at least you are not trying to convince the community that its all "unfun" now.

Everyone does have an attachment to this game, and I am no exception. I want the game to live past these cries. If travis does get out good for him but what mess did he make before he left that the rest of us have to clean up?

I just haven't been on much, the events I'm going to I committed to a while ago so I'm still going, but i am equally unhappy with the state of the game right now.

We have always told the truth as we see it. The truth right now the game is less fun. Even i can't defend it right now. Locally after krayt cup we're running objective leauges, I'm hoping desperately something changes.

Ships with arcs that take damage when you shoot at them are more fun.

Using lists that eliminate decisions made by you and your opponent is a legitimate strategy.

FFG is responsible for designing content that feels fun, that means weighting the power curve slightly towards ships with arcs that take damage when you shoot at them.

There will always be a Tier 1 in the meta, what matters is that the best possible lists are as fun as possible to use and play against for the largest # of players.

We all should use the best possible lists at a competitive level to maintain data quality.

6 minutes ago, catachanninja said:

I just haven't been on much, the events I'm going to I committed to a while ago so I'm still going, but i am equally unhappy with the state of the game right now.

We have always told the truth as we see it. The truth right now the game is less fun. Even i can't defend it right now. Locally after krayt cup we're running objective leauges, I'm hoping desperately something changes.

Attitude is the only thing that needs to change. You love this game and you know it. Embrace it for what it is and we can all have fun again.