Whatever happens to them, these characters have all already been introduced in the story, and most of them were underlined as important people. Yori may not go bad and nail Sukune to a standard, but he's still the Kuni daimyo and chief Shadowlands researcher of the Crab. Yak may not grow a claw, but he's still Kisada's angry-stompy son who likes to apply a tetsubo to all of life's problems, and so on, and so forth. Their future might not be the same as it was in Old5R, but the characters are (with some adjustment) roughly the same as they were a little before the start of the Clan Wars.

JJ48, that's because at the time pretty much all cards' stories came in the form of flavor text and art. L5R wasn't just about interactive storytelling ; it was also (and perhaps even more so) about telling a story with cards . Not using cards as pretty bits of cardboard that represent stuff that happens in a story. The cards themselves were the primary mean of communicating the story to us, and it was fun . Daidoji Uji had art that told us a bit about who he was (a Crane samurai who wear a mask). Flavor text that told us something about it too (obviously, a man of action who doesn't want to waste time on words). Who got quoted on which other cards told us something of how the characters related to one another (Shiba Tsukune, for example, admires Isawa Tomo's sense of strategy). In comparison, we knew, even without any fiction to spell it out, that Kakita Yoshi was a well-placed man in the courts who knew many secrets about the other clans.

You can still, of course, create a character in flavor. But this time, there just isn't a card. Sure, we can have quotes on random cards refering to Daidoji Uji. But we don't have a Daidoji Uji card (for now) to tie it all together, and give us a glimpse into a)what the man looks like and b)what kind of person he is (via flavor text). The card, back in Imperial Edition,. was what tied all the disparate bits of flavor together.

That was enough to create characters right there. Unfortunately, between long lead time between story and card printing ; and entitled fans demanding pre-chewed story bits all conveniently stacked in one place rather than having to (GASP) hunt it down, and "Card design and story can't have anything to do with each other" became an ironclad rule, and in the end storytelling eventually became all about online fiction, and L5R lost its "telling stories with cards" angle, which made it a far lesser game than it had been. The mechanism remained unique, but the fundamental nature of the game became far more "generic card game".

1 hour ago, JJ48 said:

I guess people identifying with cards with no story is a rather new and strange concept to me, so I can't really speak to it. Is it really that different to identify with Tsuruchi Rin vs identifying with Tsuruchi Bounty Hunter, though? If they occupy the same place in my deck and have the exact same ability, odds are I would view them the same way. In both cases I can extend their story if I wish, the only difference being that in the latter case I have to come up with a name first.

Not necessarily. Boba Fett is more often just "Bounty Hunter." He is only mentioned by name as Boba Fett in Return of the Jedi , and even then only the one part where Han and Chewie are talking about him: "Boba Fett? Boba Fett? Where?" At all other times in that film and the entirety of The Empire Strikes Back he's just Bounty Hunter. And it's hard to say fans don't have an attachment to this guy.

4 minutes ago, Ide Yoshiya said:

Not necessarily. Boba Fett is more often just "Bounty Hunter." He is only mentioned by name as Boba Fett in Return of the Jedi , and even then only the one part where Han and Chewie are talking about him: "Boba Fett? Boba Fett? Where?" At all other times in that film and the entirety of The Empire Strikes Back he's just Bounty Hunter.

Of course Boba Fett was 'named' even before Empire was released.

4 minutes ago, Ide Yoshiya said:

Not necessarily. Boba Fett is more often just "Bounty Hunter." He is only mentioned by name as Boba Fett in Return of the Jedi , and even then only the one part where Han and Chewie are talking about him: "Boba Fett? Boba Fett? Where?" At all other times in that film and the entirety of The Empire Strikes Back he's just Bounty Hunter.

Well, to really get to know the character you need to watch the Star Wars Holiday Special. Clearly the high point of the series!

Please. To REALLY know Boba Feet, you had to be at the San Anselmo county fair parade on September 24, 1978. Those who only discovered him in the Holiday Special two months later are just wannabes :-p.

That said, Star Wars - as far back as Boba Fett and Empire - is just about the heavy weight world champion and most stellar demonstration of the value of naming your characters. Aside from literal mooks (stormtroopers, the most basic soldiers, battle droids and the ilk), the overwhelming majority of characters in Star Wars received a name the instant an action figure got released. And, in some case, they received those names ahead of the movie. Fett's a bit of an oddball case (was he identified as Fett at the San Anselmo fair, or did the name first appear in the Holiday Special?), but Ackbar and Mace Windu most notably got revealed via action figures months ahead of their respective movie's release. And Fett, Ackbar and Windu is practically a who's who of the most popular minor characters in Star Wars (missing Wedge, but Wedge first appeared in Hope).

These days, it's far beyond that. Who didn't know about Rey, Finn, Captain Phasma (who's effectively the Boba Fett/Mace Windu of TFA - awesome look, and, like Windu, name actress; really popular with the fans; but ultimately minor role), Kylo Ren, General Hux, Maz Kanata, or even Unkar Plugg and the rest before they walked in into their first showing of TFA? They weren't generic aliens or generic stormtroopers or what have you. The moment we saw them in the story, we could connect them with what we had found out in earlier materials. The same in Rogue One - Baz Malbus, Cassian Andor, Jyn Erso, Director Krennic et al were all introduced in teaser shots and merchandising long before the movies were out. In this case, revealing the characters ahead of their stories, even the one who just have minor roles, effectively serve as another way to preview and tease the actual story - another powerful advertising tool.

13 minutes ago, Himoto said:

Please. To REALLY know Boba Feet, you had to be at the San Anselmo county fair parade on September 24, 1978. Those who only discovered him in the Holiday Special two months later are just wannabes :-p.

That said, Star Wars - as far back as Boba Fett and Empire - is just about the heavy weight world champion and most stellar demonstration of the value of naming your characters. Aside from literal mooks (stormtroopers, the most basic soldiers, battle droids and the ilk), the overwhelming majority of characters in Star Wars received a name the instant an action figure got released. And, in some case, they received those names ahead of the movie. Fett's a bit of an oddball case (was he identified as Fett at the San Anselmo fair, or did the name first appear in the Holiday Special?), but Ackbar and Mace Windu most notably got revealed via action figures months ahead of their respective movie's release. And Fett, Ackbar and Windu is practically a who's who of the most popular minor characters in Star Wars (missing Wedge, but Wedge first appeared in Hope).

These days, it's far beyond that. Who didn't know about Rey, Finn, Captain Phasma (who's effectively the Boba Fett/Mace Windu of TFA - awesome look, and, like Windu, name actress; really popular with the fans; but ultimately minor role), Kylo Ren, General Hux, Maz Kanata, or even Unkar Plugg and the rest before they walked in into their first showing of TFA? They weren't generic aliens or generic stormtroopers or what have you. The moment we saw them in the story, we could connect them with what we had found out in earlier materials. The same in Rogue One - Baz Malbus, Cassian Andor, Jyn Erso, Director Krennic et al were all introduced in teaser shots and merchandising long before the movies were out. In this case, revealing the characters ahead of their stories, even the one who just have minor roles, effectively serve as another way to preview and tease the actual story - another powerful advertising tool.

Wedge Antilles? A minor character ?! Looks like somebody needs to read more of the X-Wing series...

I'd also say that I'm sure you have a decent point in your last paragraph, but honestly I didn't know who any of those characters were until I saw the movie in the theater. Why, I don't think I knew who Captain Phasma was until after I had seen the movie three or four times, and I have no idea who General Hux or Unkar Plugg are. Of course, this is all a bit of a moot point, as these would undoubtedly be unique characters rather than non-unique characters.

20 minutes ago, Himoto said:

Please. To REALLY know Boba Feet, you had to be at the San Anselmo county fair parade on September 24, 1978. Those who only discovered him in the Holiday Special two months later are just wannabes :-p.

That said, Star Wars - as far back as Boba Fett and Empire - is just about the heavy weight world champion and most stellar demonstration of the value of naming your characters. Aside from literal mooks (stormtroopers, the most basic soldiers, battle droids and the ilk), the overwhelming majority of characters in Star Wars received a name the instant an action figure got released. And, in some case, they received those names ahead of the movie. Fett's a bit of an oddball case (was he identified as Fett at the San Anselmo fair, or did the name first appear in the Holiday Special?), but Ackbar and Mace Windu most notably got revealed via action figures months ahead of their respective movie's release. And Fett, Ackbar and Windu is practically a who's who of the most popular minor characters in Star Wars (missing Wedge, but Wedge first appeared in Hope).

These days, it's far beyond that. Who didn't know about Rey, Finn, Captain Phasma (who's effectively the Boba Fett/Mace Windu of TFA - awesome look, and, like Windu, name actress; really popular with the fans; but ultimately minor role), Kylo Ren, General Hux, Maz Kanata, or even Unkar Plugg and the rest before they walked in into their first showing of TFA? They weren't generic aliens or generic stormtroopers or what have you. The moment we saw them in the story, we could connect them with what we had found out in earlier materials. The same in Rogue One - Baz Malbus, Cassian Andor, Jyn Erso, Director Krennic et al were all introduced in teaser shots and merchandising long before the movies were out. In this case, revealing the characters ahead of their stories, even the one who just have minor roles, effectively serve as another way to preview and tease the actual story - another powerful advertising tool.

I still remember sending in my proofs of purchase for Ackbar.

Wedge is a minor character in the context of the movies, comparable with Fett or Ackbar. Mace Windu became a little less minor as the story progressed, but even he remained a secondary character. Of course, all of them got promoted to major cast members of the expanded universe.

In the context of Star Wars, pretty much everyone we see onscreen is a named character. That's kind of the thing with Star Wars. The only exception are literal faceless mooks (stormtroopers, battle droids) and the occasional rank-and-file soldier - and even them, some of them do have names and stories, though in some cases they got them later.

(And the point remain valid considering how few unique characters we see in the initial release. There just aren't enough "unique" slots to showcase the characters of L5R in an introductory set.

Just now, Himoto said:

Wedge is a minor character in the context of the movies, comparable with Fett or Ackbar. Mace Windu became a little less minor as the story progressed, but even he remained a secondary character. Of course, all of them got promoted to major cast members of the expanded universe.

In the context of Star Wars, pretty much everyone we see onscreen is a named character. That's kind of the thing with Star Wars. The only exception are literal faceless mooks (stormtroopers, battle droids) and the occasional rank-and-file soldier - and even them, some of them do have names and stories, though in some cases they got them later.

Right. And then in Decipher's CCG (the SW card game I'm most familiar with), they fleshed things out a bit by having some generic Imperial Pilots, Rebel Commanders, and Rodians. You felt that the SW universe was really a lot more expansive than just the mere 3,000 or so named characters.

Ummmm ... didn't one of the designers say in an interview, that there will be both unique and non-unique named characters?

2 minutes ago, Kakita Shijin said:

Ummmm ... didn't one of the designers say in an interview, that there will be both unique and non-unique named characters?

I don't really follow the interviews, so I can't speak to that personally. It does seem like it would be a little odd to have both generic and named non-unique characters, unless there was some story reason for a particular character to be non-unique.

Just now, JJ48 said:

I don't really follow the interviews, so I can't speak to that personally. It does seem like it would be a little odd to have both generic and named non-unique characters, unless there was some story reason for a particular character to be non-unique.

I completely agree.

On 7/14/2017 at 10:33 PM, Ide Yoshiya said:

For when I played Star Wars: The Card Game , I never felt happier as the light side than when my good friend, the non-unique Guardian of Peace, joined the fray on my side, nor felt a greater sense of dread as the dark side than when she did so as my opponent's protector.

This is why I feel that having actual names for non-unique characters is a great thing. In the CCG days, facing off against a Scorpion meant that my characters would become dishonored. When you dishonor Doji Doukohito, I am angry. When you dishonor Cunning Magistrate, I'm mildly annoyed. When I sacrifice Kakita Kai to use the Ring of Fire, it's a noble sacrifice. When I sacrifice Influential Courtier, it's a calculated game move. None of the actions have the same gravitas, even if other cards share the same name on the table. Further, names carry weight. Who didn't become crestfallen at the sound of "Bayushi Saya" or "Doji Saori"?

Maybe it's because I don't read the fiction, but for me a lot of the fun of the game came from what happened to these named characters through the course of the game and attempting to win, and learning that in the fiction, all of these characters were dead, or in hiding, or what-have-you. Accepting that you can't keep them alive, you can't keep them all honorable, and you can't use them to their full potential adds weight to when bad things inevitably happen to them, because the player across from you is doing the same. Having your faceless mooks take one for the team is a storytelling trope that doesn't fit L5R (except for followers, but they are filthy peasants and not important).

Anyway, that's just my opinion. I'm pretty sure I'll enjoy the game regardless, it just feels like we lost something that was quite unique and cool to the L5R brand.

I really don't want to care about a boxable 2/3, especially when he's the "soul of" the same boxable 2/3 that's been around since hidden emperor. For me, he doesn't need a name and a story. And the point about followers being gone really helps with that. I want to know that if they have a name, it's because they did something in the fiction, even if it's as small as the one from the Crab story. She died saving Kisada, and I have a chance to act that out in the LCG if I understand the Crab mechanics. I mean, it's not like we're losing named characters at all. We haven't seen the whole kit, but I'm willing to bet there's more than enough unique people to get to know, especially since like it or not we get all 7 clans.

Again, what's wrong with introducing the character as a card THEN later once people are familiar with the name having it show up in fiction?

Insisting that it must be the other way around is just...so needlessly limiting.

I didn't say that at all. Make the card first, like they did with Tomanatsu. Just make the name matter if you're going to make me need to know it. Because eager scout is way easier to remember than Tomanatsu. Not limiting anything, there's plenty of examples of both already. You're putting words where they're not.

12 minutes ago, llamaman88 said:

Because eager scout is way easier to remember than Tomanatsu.

You have your cards before you on the table. You don't need to learn them by name. Untill they print something like this:

You've never discussed the game without the cards in front of you? And yea, that mechanic isn't exactly rare either.

32 minutes ago, llamaman88 said:

You've never discussed the game without the cards in front of you? And yea, that mechanic isn't exactly rare either.

Discussion about L5R CCG was one of the most important topic in game-oriented part of my life for last 12 years. As active player there was never a problem to remember card names of this playable part of cardpool. Also, like in every subculture many cards got their local nicknames or funny synonyms (nobody was talking he was crushed by Moto Chagatai experienced 4, but simple Chaggy or Chagatron was enough).

Eager scout may sound easy to remember, but once we have "Eager Scout" and "Naive Scout" and "Cadet Scout" and "Scout Trainee", it,s going to be as confusing as any names ever were, if not worse.

There were cards I hadn't even seen before in the playable part of the card pool, let alone remembering the names of cards from the clans I didn't play.

I was more likely to remember a character because of something cool they did in the fiction or flavor text. Especially playing on and off through so many editions, it got to a point where I didn't even care about anyone who wasn't experienced 2+, the rest were just renamed guys from the block before and "soul of" stamped on. Not that even experienced could save them from that.

5 minutes ago, Himoto said:

Eager scout may sound easy to remember, but once we have "Eager Scout" and "Naive Scout" and "Cadet Scout" and "Scout Trainee", it,s going to be as confusing as any names ever were, if not worse.

Those are still words in my native tongue, unlike names. You can only imagine how butchered those names can get at times. Heck my card shop couldn't agree how to pronounce Hida and Shugenja, let alone some of the longer names.

Im not saying this will make anyone immune to mixing up cards. Just saying it makes named characters more meaningful to me, and I agree with other people's point of Eager Scout and Shiba Yojimbo being evocative of the setting.

22 minutes ago, llamaman88 said:

There were cards I hadn't even seen before in the playable part of the card pool, let alone remembering the names of cards from the clans I didn't play.

I was more likely to remember a character because of something cool they did in the fiction or flavor text. Especially playing on and off through so many editions, it got to a point where I didn't even care about anyone who wasn't experienced 2+, the rest were just renamed guys from the block before and "soul of" stamped on. Not that even experienced could save them from that.

Yeah I'm with you here. I didn't keep playing through all of Gold, but I remember seeing "soul of x" put on cards, which basically told me they were the same person. Neither name appeared in fiction... If it wasn't Scorpion I wouldn't likely recognize the name, and even now I forget most of the Scorpion ones. I remember the key players, Akodo Kage, Bayushi Shoju, Utaku Kamoko, Togashi, Isawa Tadaka, ect.

I first played L5R with the Pearl release and there were only 2 Scorpion personalities in the set. Bayushi Aramoro and Bayushi Yokuon. Guess who's name I had to look up? Guess which one I remembered? Yeah, turns out it didn't matter that Yokuon had a name.

And I think that is the main point - It really doesn't matter if every card has a name or not. We are going to relate to the stories as they are presented, and the cards as we play with them. There were some really interesting points of flavor in old5R presented in the text of the cards - I'm not arguing that FFG shouldn't put in flavor text - but ol5R also had followers who had generic names. There is room in this game for both.

I think the criticism of this primarily stems from a simple lack of names. This is the first release, and the way LCG work we aren't going to get the full game in these boxes. In the months following the release we will see more names that we will get to play with, and more fictions to tie them all together. When we've had 6 more expansions delivering named cards to fill out the caste I'm sure people will be satisfied they are playing with the highest level characters in Rokugan.

1 hour ago, Himoto said:

Again, what's wrong with introducing the character as a card THEN later once people are familiar with the name having it show up in fiction?

Insisting that it must be the other way around is just...so needlessly limiting.

You're absolutely right. Names don't have to come from fictions first. I think it's smart to always have a card for any character in the fiction. Seeing Hitomi and Masashige in the fiction without cards does leave me wanting... So I think there is merit to having some named cards that haven't appeared in fiction yet, just to prepare for what is to come.

Still, this is the first set - I think it's a bit premature to judge. Ol5R did have both named and generic cast, they were just divided as personalities and followers. New5R just puts them both on the "personality" level. I'm certain we'll see more names as the game expands.

1 hour ago, Himoto said:

Again, what's wrong with introducing the character as a card THEN later once people are familiar with the name having it show up in fiction?

Insisting that it must be the other way around is just...so needlessly limiting.

As long they don't try to put EVERY named card in the fiction, just because they're a named card, I'm fine with it.

We've seen it the other way, and the result were fairly mixed.

Shiba Tsukune is a person. Shiba Yojimbo is nobody. Someone who's so unimportant they don't deserve a name. A trivial pawn on a chessboard, cannon fodder, red shirts. Nothing .

Which means I have zero interest in them, and frankly fairly low interest in actually buying the game. It's not a bad design, it sounds fun to play, but a large part of why I bought Old 5R is for the storytelling aspect of the cards, which mostly came down to personality and a few other cards. That's down to a handful of unique personality each set now, which frankly doesn't begin to be worth the money. So yes, while it's a good game and I'll be happy to play it with friends if they happen to buy the set and have decks, it does mean FFG is not getting my money.

And meanwhile you're thinking it's good because you don't have to worry about how to pronounce foreign names anymore. Excuse me if I'm not impressed.

Quote

As long they don't try to put EVERY named card in the fiction, just because they're a named card, I'm fine with it.

We've seen it the other way, and the result were fairly mixed.

Yes, but that largely comes down to the brand team deciding "We should let players decide which characters get what story prize when they win!" (instead of sticking to the old "the winner's clan determines which clan gets the story prize and THAT'S IT"), and the playerbase running with it in the most idiotic way possible.