I've yet to see anything about an Obligations/Duty/Morality mechanic. Anyone care to venture how this will be done in Genesys?

15 minutes ago, Scott Bot said:

I've yet to see anything about an Obligations/Duty/Morality mechanic. Anyone care to venture how this will be done in Genesys?

I imagine that would be done as setting specific flavor, rather than a generic mechanic

I doubt those types of mechanics will be included, outside of an optional module in the back. To be honest, those aspects of the game felt more like bloat, something to pad out an adventure if the GM couldn't think of enough to keep the player's interest. It was a novel concept but I don't think it'll be, or really should be, included.

Well not as core but like I said I'll be surprised if there isn't an optional add-in put in the back.

Seems a pretty "core" idea to me, given than it awards extra character points at creation. I'm just not sure how they'd work it in, unless as Advantages (Duty)/Disadvantages (Obligations) without a middle ground (Morality: Emotional Weakness/Strength). Well, I think I just answered myself. Thanks anyway, y'all!

Yeah, but if you took it out those points or bonuses just would either be given or just omitted.

But to be honest, as much as I dislike the morality/obligation/duty mechanics, an advantage/disadvantage or a perks/quirks (like in Cortex) would be really cool. I love those kind of mechanics as they really help define the character. Here's hoping.

It's possible they'll offer all this and more, seems like there's room for those and more to be made available. Sanity, for example.

1 hour ago, themensch said:

Sanity, for example.

Most defintely, the Obligations/Duty/Morality-system would be a perfect way to handle something like that. Or perhaps "Honor" in Legend of the Five Rings.

There's also a very good chance that Obligation/Duty/Morality are part and parcel of the Star Wars RPG, and thus cannot be used outside of those games.

WotC had a similar issue with the Condition Track system in their Saga Edition RPG, which a lot of folks loved and would have loved to see implemented in D&D since it did away with all the various different condition types that could be a pain to keep track off, but the Condition Track mechanics were essentially owned by Lucasfilm, so WotC wasn't able to use it elsewhere.

1 hour ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

There's also a very good chance that Obligation/Duty/Morality are part and parcel of the Star Wars RPG, and thus cannot be used outside of those games.

WotC had a similar issue with the Condition Track system in their Saga Edition RPG, which a lot of folks loved and would have loved to see implemented in D&D since it did away with all the various different condition types that could be a pain to keep track off, but the Condition Track mechanics were essentially owned by Lucasfilm, so WotC wasn't able to use it elsewhere.

What?

That makes no sense. I'm not disputing your description of the WotC events, but... in what world is the entirety of the SRD of EotE owned by FFG save the Obligation system? As a lawyer I'm mildly befuddled.

1 hour ago, CitizenKeen said:

What?

That makes no sense. I'm not disputing your description of the WotC events, but... in what world is the entirety of the SRD of EotE owned by FFG save the Obligation system? As a lawyer I'm mildly befuddled.

It all depends on how the licensing contract is written.

The fact that FFG had to change the symbols on the dice to something a bit more generic as well as remove the Force die entirely is proof enough that the Lucasfilm licensing contract considers certain aspects of the game to be their exclusive IP.

27 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

It all depends on how the licensing contract is written.

The fact that FFG had to change the symbols on the dice to something a bit more generic as well as remove the Force die entirely is proof enough that the Lucasfilm licensing contract considers certain aspects of the game to be their exclusive IP.

Yeah, but art and game mechanics are totally different. Having written a number of licensing contracts, the dice mean nothing.

Also, "FFG had to" - there's no evidence of that. If I had made a game with a Star Wars specific set of dice and wanted to make it generic, you'd bet I'd change it up to be more generic. What evidence is there that FFG is doing anything they don't want to?

I wonder why they removed the Force Dice, there were a bunch of really cool ways to use them. Super powers, cybernetics, a better hacking system.

Tons of things. Even as an extra dice to think of something novel to play with the dot distribution. Real shame.

40 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

It all depends on how the licensing contract is written.

The fact that FFG had to change the symbols on the dice to something a bit more generic as well as remove the Force die entirely is proof enough that the Lucasfilm licensing contract considers certain aspects of the game to be their exclusive IP.

11 minutes ago, CitizenKeen said:

Yeah, but art and game mechanics are totally different. Having written a number of licensing contracts, the dice mean nothing.

Also, "FFG had to" - there's no evidence of that. If I had made a game with a Star Wars specific set of dice and wanted to make it generic, you'd bet I'd change it up to be more generic. What evidence is there that FFG is doing anything they don't want to?

Truly not to bolster or impede either point the two of you are making, but I'm pretty sure the Triumph symbol is straight up Owned by Lucasfilm/Disney. And if you were going to have to change one... at that point why not make them all "your own?"

3 minutes ago, dresdinseven said:

I wonder why they removed the Force Dice, there were a bunch of really cool ways to use them. Super powers, cybernetics, a better hacking system.

Tons of things. Even as an extra dice to think of something novel to play with the dot distribution. Real shame.

It might not be a part of the core system... Where it's got a sidebar or something on how to use it. Then again, they don't include the die in the Genesys die... so I'm probably off on that. That said, as a 25+ year generic system veteran who says you can't add that in to various mechanics for the game(s) you make with this system? I might. Problem is I'm waiting to see what they do with Talent trees and their in-house magic system(s).

1 minute ago, Hexnwolf said:

And if you were going to have to change one... at that point why not make them all "your own?"

Stellar point. Plus, why tie setting specific symbols to a generic system? It would only reinforce the feeling of "gee this is just Star Wars but not"

2 minutes ago, Hexnwolf said:

It might not be a part of the core system... Where it's got a sidebar or something on how to use it. Then again, they don't include the die in the Genesys die... so I'm probably off on that. That said, as a 25+ year generic system veteran who says you can't add that in to various mechanics for the game(s) you make with this system? I might. Problem is I'm waiting to see what they do with Talent trees and their in-house magic system(s).

I feel the same way. Nothing says i can't just put it right back in.

But when it comes to game components vs game mechanics, I'm much more hesitant to put in a proprietary component that would be third party to Genesys. Mechanics are conceptual, put them on paper and there they are, but non-standard components are an actual burden to the players. If I could get the same feel from a standard dX dice, it wouldn't be so much of an issue. I'm curious how they'll do magic, because I really liked the Force mechanics in the old games.

9 minutes ago, Hexnwolf said:

Truly not to bolster or impede either point the two of you are making, but I'm pretty sure the Triumph symbol is straight up Owned by Lucasfilm/Disney. And if you were going to have to change one... at that point why not make them all "your own?"

Success is a 7 pointed star and Failure is that upside-down curved triangle (despair too). Those are Light Side/Dark Side icons straight from SWTOR.

Advantage is a modified Rebel Bird or Jedi Emblem.

Threat is practically a TIE cockpit.

So yeah, they're all copyrighted.

Just now, dresdinseven said:

Stellar point. Plus, why tie setting specific symbols to a generic system? It would only reinforce the feeling of "gee this is just Star Wars but not"

Thank you.

Just now, dresdinseven said:

I feel the same way. Nothing says i can't just put it right back in.

But when it comes to game components vs game mechanics, I'm much more hesitant to put in a proprietary component that would be third party to Genesys. Mechanics are conceptual, put them on paper and there they are, but non-standard components are an actual burden to the players. If I could get the same feel from a standard dX dice, it wouldn't be so much of an issue. I'm curious how they'll do magic, because I really liked the Force mechanics in the old games.

Yah, that's really the reason I might not. I've played Generic system for a long time in my gaming career... and found they work better if I let the system as designed work the way it's supposed to. Not that I don't mettle, more, the better generic systems usually have an answer for that.

1 minute ago, DarthGM said:

Success is a 7 pointed star and Failure is that upside-down curved triangle (despair too). Those are Light Side/Dark Side icons straight from SWTOR.

Advantage is a modified Rebel Bird or Jedi Emblem.

Threat is practically a TIE cockpit.

So yeah, they're all copyrighted.

Just going to say this once, as to not be a pain and sidetrack a good thread. I can't help but geek a bit when a gamer-hero answers directly. I never listen, but if I did, this would have made my day.

15 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

There's also a very good chance that Obligation/Duty/Morality are part and parcel of the Star Wars RPG, and thus cannot be used outside of those games.

WotC had a similar issue with the Condition Track system in their Saga Edition RPG, which a lot of folks loved and would have loved to see implemented in D&D since it did away with all the various different condition types that could be a pain to keep track off, but the Condition Track mechanics were essentially owned by Lucasfilm, so WotC wasn't able to use it elsewhere.

AFAIK, you can't copyright game mechanics; hence, the OSR and all the retroclones. Symbols, art, specific text implementing some game mechanic - all subject to copyright (and/or trademark).

I imagine Obligation/Duty/Morality and variants thereof will be specific to individual themes or settings, as those systems are themselves specific to the settings - e.g., for Edge, neither Duty nor Morality really fit. From what I know, they don't fit Legend of the Five Rings either, nor would Star Wars-style Morality; but, as mentioned, some kind of Honor system would be near-perfect.

Obligation, Duty, and Morality all do one big important thing: they bind player actions to future consequences while keeping the specific odds of those consequences ambiguous enough (with a d100 or d10 roll) that players are pushed toward roleplay rather than gaming the system.

Do I do this bad thing? I might take a Morality hit or I might not... It's tempting.

Do I take this shady loan? It gives me some Obligation, but it could go any number of sessions before I have to deal with it (especially if the GM doesn't reveal the exact magnitude or group table).

Do we take our faction's help? It'll take us longer to rise in Contribution Rank, but this assignment looks near impossible.

Obligation especially is useful in almost any setting whenever the players irritate, offend, or harm an NPC or faction. Duty is useful in almost any setting with factions which players can join and advance within, though there is a potential for overload of Duty Tables for a system with many settings... Defining Duty types may be a task best left to the GM. Morality is more closely tied to Star Wars than the other two, but it definitely presents a template for other, similar mechanics (Sanity in particular, as some have mentioned).

However, even if none of these mechanics make it into the Genesys Core Rulebook, they are in fact the easiest to port yourself because they use standard dice and are fairly obvious in their implementation. I wouldn't worry too much either way.

10 hours ago, coyote6 said:

AFAIK, you can't copyright game mechanics; hence, the OSR and all the retroclones. Symbols, art, specific text implementing some game mechanic - all subject to copyright (and/or trademark).

Thing with OSR and the retroclones is that they're built around variations of WotC's own Open Gaming License, which pretty much says "here's the nuts and bolts of our 3rd edition d20 ruleset, go do what you want with it!" Which a number of companies did indeed run with, tweaking the 3rd edition d20 rules in a number of different ways.

FATE is built off of the Fudge system, which itself was pretty much "free to use" for folks that wanted to.

With regards to FFG's Star Wars, there is no OGL to let other companies do what they want with the system, and Lucasfilm can be very (overly to some folks' POV) protective about their IP. Again, it all boils down to the licensing agreement between the two companies. Given how profitable the SW gaming license has been for FFG, not only for the RPG but also the card games and minis games, they might have been willing to sign away certain things in favor of profits, which makes sense from a business stand point as FFG is a for-profit company that is interested in generating steady revenue for its shareholders and making sure their employees get paid in a timely manner. So if one of the requirements for the license was for Lucasfilm to retain ownership of aspects of the game mechanics designed specifically for the Star Wars RPG, then FFG's options was either sign the license and accept the terms, or pass on and run the risk of somebody else grab one of the hotter IPs currently on the market.

33 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Thing with OSR and the retroclones is that they're built around variations of WotC's own Open Gaming License, which pretty much says "here's the nuts and bolts of our 3rd edition d20 ruleset, go do what you want with it!" Which a number of companies did indeed run with, tweaking the 3rd edition d20 rules in a number of different ways.

FATE is built off of the Fudge system, which itself was pretty much "free to use" for folks that wanted to.

With regards to FFG's Star Wars, there is no OGL to let other companies do what they want with the system, and Lucasfilm can be very (overly to some folks' POV) protective about their IP. Again, it all boils down to the licensing agreement between the two companies. Given how profitable the SW gaming license has been for FFG, not only for the RPG but also the card games and minis games, they might have been willing to sign away certain things in favor of profits, which makes sense from a business stand point as FFG is a for-profit company that is interested in generating steady revenue for its shareholders and making sure their employees get paid in a timely manner. So if one of the requirements for the license was for Lucasfilm to retain ownership of aspects of the game mechanics designed specifically for the Star Wars RPG, then FFG's options was either sign the license and accept the terms, or pass on and run the risk of somebody else grab one of the hotter IPs currently on the market.

Incorrect. The retroclones and OSR movement are independent of the OGL - you can just go out and make a "OSR version of GURPS", today, with no GURPS SRD, because you can't protect mechanics. There's a person over on rpg.net creating an OSR of the Palladium system, which, save for the use of the word "Palladium", they can go out and sell on drivethrurpg tomorrow.

I'm welcome to create a Duty/Obligation mechanic that is exactly the same as the one in EotE , just with different verbiage, but again, exactly the same mechanically , and sell it for cash money. Even if there's no SRD mechanic for Genesys, that's how IP works.

Licensing aside, I will be stunned if there isn't some mechanic like Obligation. They may file the name off, but it will be some way to take a disadvantage and get a bonus from it. There's no way that's copyrighted, because game companies have been doing it for literally decades. Personally I don't care much about the bonus, I like how taking some form of disadvantage forces you to round out a character and gives the GM some great plot hooks to work into their story.

Morality and Duty I'm much more tepid about. I've never been a huge fan of the way either were handled. I could see them being used in certain specific settings, but obligation can be used in any campaign.

CitizenKeen,
Regarding OSR and the various D&D retro-clones...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeons_%26_Dragons_retro-clones

In short, they're only made possible because WotC released the Open Gaming License which freed up the general mechanics and D&D terminology for others to use without having to pay licensing fees to the parent company or worry about copyright infringement.

As for that guy on rpg.net aping Palladium's system, given how litigation happy Kevin Siembieda can be when he perceives his work as being swiped by others, especially if that person is turning around and selling it independent of Palladium, I wish him the best of luck because he's probably gonna need it, even if he does scrub the specific names and doesn't use any of the setting material or imagery from the various Palladium games.

An unsourced wikipedia statement doesn't really do anything for me.

From OSRIC's own description, the first citation in that Wikipedia article:

Quote

Thus, in many ways, the entire OSRIC ^TM book is nothing more than a tool for old-school writers, a stepping stone to put the original, non-copyrightable portion of the old-school rules into an open license, as permitted by law. Great pains have been taken to ensure that we have used none of the original artistic presentation, for we have the greatest possible respect for the authors who originally created these games. We considered the non-copyrightable rules to be the numerical algorithms that would be in a computer version of the game (most precedent in the area of game copyrights has come from computer games, not RPGs), and have included these and the relations between the results of the formulae. "To hit" numbers are a clear example. On the other hand, level titles other than "name" level are clearly artistic presentation and are excluded. When "name" level does not create a numerical effect such as taxes from a stronghold or the ability to improve fighting power with followers, we have not used name level titles, even though the titles themselves are generic words.

emphasis mine.

There is absolutely nothing in the core mechanics of EotE/Genesys that FFG can protect or Disney can claim to own, only the verbiage and the Star Wars trappings (which probably includes the dice symbols, maybe phrases like "Outer Rim").

So even if FFG had to sign something saying they wouldn't do it, I'll just go on DriveThruRPG and sell the mechanic after the game launches.