40k 5th Ed. seems to hint at a bit of narrative progression, with the Golden Throne starting to falter and the Imperium starting to finally crumble.

So i thought it might be quite fun to engage in a bit of speculation...

The Golden Throne fails and the Emperor dies...what happens next?

The emperor does not die and the golden throne fails happily for another ten thousand years.

I don´t really expect that the stalemate will ever change, otherwise you could burn all your rule- and sourcebooks on a funeral pyre in the backyard. A major change would effectively destroy the games feel.

The Golden Throne is not actually failing, and we have a second heresy.

To stop the fluff from changing and giving us the closure we never wanted we should form some sort of conclave to keep the Imperium in a constant status quo. Down with progress, the Imperium is awesome as it is.

I vote that we hold this conclave at Mount Amalath. All in favour?

I still have to think of a name for the movement though...

Don't know if we'll ever see this - not really sure if I ever want to see this. However, it might be a great entry into exploring more of the "Imperium" (other than Space Marines) by introducing all sorts of new factions/organizations/etc.

AJC

AJCarrington said:

I think you're right. GW never will advance their narrative.

AJCarrington said:

Well, since GW never will, i thought it might be fun to speculate as to what might happen when the Emperor does shuffle off his mortal coil...

It seems however, to be literally unthinkable for the forumites here...

Luddite said:

I personally like the conspiracy where he already is "dead", has been for thousands of years and the old Chaos lads aren't all wrong is saying the the Imperium is worshipping a corpse.

I guess that's one of the things I like about the 40K universe: its full of so much ambiguity that you can do just about anything you want. Of course, this also drives me nuts in that "canon" material tends to be pretty light.

AJC

I dont think killing the Emperor (or whatever) is the only way to advance the storyline. Technically the storyline advanced when the killed the squats. (sort of).

Maybe having a major event that actually affects part of the status quo, such as the Fourth C'Tan awaking on Mars or Chaos destroying Mordria or Armageddon or some other major world/well known world.

Perhaps a inquisition war or a minor Space Marine skirmish.

Maybe even have the Tau subjugate a few extra worlds near their Empire, giving them a new race of creatures for their forces and taking a world from the Imperium.

Or begin a storyline called The Year of Darkness, where the Golden Throne's power diminishes for a while and for one year all sort of stuff can happen where the Empire is crippled and when the lights come back on they have to reconquoer and survive.

Cop-out version:
Nothing happens. Who says the Emperor didn't really die years ago and the High Lords of Terra have been keeping it hushed up all this time? The Astronomicon has been switched over to an alternate source (don't ask me what, I'm spitballing here) and everything trundles along nicely and unchanged. Except the Imperium is now in the hands of the High Lords.

More fun version:
Finally free of his mortal prison, the Emperor's spirit is free to reincarnate into a new form. While this is happening the Imperium undergoes partial collapse due to the failing of the Astronomicon and such. Sectors fall under control of their immediate lords, planets break free, general mayhem unfolds for a few centuries.
Durring this time, the Emperor grows to adulthood again and begins reclaiming his Imperium, which has gone quite awry in the 10,000 years since he was 'conscious'.
Ineviatably the Ecclesiarchy will fracture into "Oh yes he is" and "Oh no he isn't" factions, some recognising the new Emperor, some convinced he's a fake. Civil War will swallow Terra and the Sol system.

Eventually the Emperor will triumph (c'mon, face it) and will start re-conquoring the fractured Imperium in a second Great Crusade. Any remaining Primarches (Russ? etc) will reappear, and maybe the Emperor will create a new family of Sons to lead new chapters of Space Marines. The Imperium will once again be at war, with itself, with Aliens, with chaos and with the armies of the New Imperium.

Add to this chaos the reawakening of the Void Dragon, the inevitable bid for power by Chaos and another Tyranid invasion.

Evilscary said:

The Void Dragon has a different role in all of this.

Trust me. The Emperor knows all about the C'Tan on Mars...

I won't say more, except this: Read Mechanicum by Graham McNiell. Best Heresy novel so far, IMO, and it sheds so much light on this subject...

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Was going to say this myself if no one else had. Mechanicum sheds a *lot* of light on the situation with the Dragon

Thanks for this - hadn't picked that book up yet.

AJC

Luddite said:

Warp travel will become inexplicably hazzardous, perhaps to the point of the Imperium eventually collapsing. The Ecclesiarchy will continue to preach as they always have, the death of the Emperor will be known only to the High Lords of Terra and the most senior Adeptus Custodes who "shields" the mindless masses from the realization that their god is (was, that is) mortal.

Perhaps the Astronomican can even function to some degree without the Emperor's knowledge and nothing will really happen. Maybe it has already happened.

Slaunyeh said:

Good point - perhaps this might lead to going after the Tau for their space flight technology? Great way to integrate Rogue Traders into a campaign.

AJC

Here's a fun theory for you (not necessarily my take per se, just a fun idea):

the emperor - the man who formed the Imperium, who led the great crusade, the most powerful psyker humanity ever produced has been dead for ten millenia.

The Emperor - the guiding entity who controls the astronomicon, grants divine power to Saints and Sisters, and watches over mankind lives.

The idea being that the emperor was never a god, however the combined belief in him and psychic potential of humanity as a whole gave birth to a god in his image. (This is not to say that The Emperor (deity) is not real is some figment of the imagination, under this postulate he is a real and powerful deific entity, but was never a mortal human, instead was created and empowered by the collective mind, faith and will of humans)

If the mass hedonistic depravity of the eldar (a psychically active race) can create a god (Slaanesh) then why not the power of the mass belief of humanity (another psychically active race)? The eldar are are far more psychically active on average, but humanity is far, far more populous than the Eldar ever were even at their height. Also, belief in the Emperor as god grew over milennia, gradually, which would explain how The Emperor(deity) could come to be without ripping open another Eye of Terror.

As such the failure of the Golden Throne will only weaken The Emperor(deity) if the it somehow weakens the belief of the masses in his power.

Then again, what if the Golden throne was never anything more than an elaborate prop that didn't really do anything? That would mean that it is not the Golden Throne which is failing, but rather the faith and will of humanity.

How does that idea strike you?

Very nice indeed.

AJC

Headhanger said:

Excellent idea. I'll see you there. I'm certain sooner or later we'll think of something stunningly original to call ourselves.

aethel said:

Perhaps the hmmm amalgamalathians?

(amalgam: creating an alloy, alloys being generally stronger or better in some way than the sum of its parts)

since we are trying to create a strong front to hold the imperium where it is now.

Val

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Not much of a fan of the ranting in that story. Maidens? Mars? The kind of power ascribed to the Emperor in that begs the question, how could he possibly have even NEEDED the primarchs? Why didn't he do the same to the galaxy in general? The power he is given in that story makes the entire crusade and his painfully slow rise to power all the more ridiculous.

What I think would be more interesting is if the Emperor Gambit of the old shamans simply failed. They didn't create him for the purposes he set himself, he didn't even KNOW about the greater galaxy at the time of his creation. The shamans were very narrow in their reasons for creating him.

Thus, just because the souls of some Australopithicus africanus reincarnated into a single form DOESN'T mean that he is galactically destined to actually DO anything. There is every chance he isn't strong enough or even capable of doing what they wanted him to.

There is no reason that other psychic races couldn't create their own 'Emperor', the process as described is not a unique thing, the Infinity Circuit of the Eldar is very similar to the Emperor, just not as focused.

So I would like to see something OTHER than 'teh empra roxxors'. He doesn't roxxor, he's failed his stated objective and he wasn't created by infallible beings so isn't destined to fix everything. That's what he WANTS to do, but wanting and destiny are seperate things.

I would think something more interesting would happen. For instance, the Nicassar create an Emperor gestalt, or several mini emperors. Ynnead forms etc.

I'm over the Emperor being the centre of all things, considering that from an objective perspective he never was nor will ever be. That's an arrogant conceit on the parts of his creators.

Hellebore

Know what I think would be genuinely cool? The emperor awakens. He's barely able to communicate, and speaks for less than an hour a day, but his corpse like form croaks out a few words every day. Old technological principles, battle plans. For 10 minutes a day, he reviews combat strategies for major campaigns, making adjustments and corrections like some kind of savant. he's the imperium's secret weapon, emboldening fleets all across the galaxy, bolstering the crumbling empire with his godlike ingenuity, even as something seems amiss.Purges are ordered against imperial worlds, for no apparent reason, seemingly important campaigns are neglected or ignored. The carrion king is smashing his empire even as he saves it. Destroying, reshaping, rebuilding. Sensing the resurgence of their most ancient foe, even as the entire imperium creaks and groans, Chaos Space Marines pour forth from ther Eye Of Terror in the single bloodiest Black Crusade ever known. Dissent is sown by cultists and sorcery far and wide, and a newly empowered abbadon sweeps aside the imperial defences and burns Cadia to ashes.

Do any of these "Emperor awakens" "Emperor dies" or "emperor is awake/is dead" scenarios advance the story of the 40K universe at all. Its like saying "Khorne packs up his toys and goes home" or "Slaneesh apologizes" or "the orks plant a garden and make you a sandwhich", sure it changes how things work, but does it really advance the story?

The Imperium spreading into a new segmentum, or carrying on a crusade to colonize the Ghoul or Halo Stars advances the story better in my opinion.

Perhaps the emperor moans out a cryptic message that the High Lords somehow do not manage to supress and that message is intepreted by some as to expand, while others see it as a warning not to expand? That would be more along the lines of expanding the meta plot of 40K. The emperor dying and the astronomicon failing and the imperium fragmenting will only result in the next ork/nid/chaos invastion wiping out mankind and then GW will have store rooms full of figs no longer in use.

You are more likely to see a new line of figs then the removal of another line (Im sure GW wishes it kept the Squats, just for monetary value).

My take is ideas that are fun to think about and play around with, though YMMV. I quite like the idea of metaplots, but don't expect anything related to RPG to actually drive/change the overall 40K timeline.

AJC

Well the TT rulebook seems to imply that such an ending may be on the Horizon...

I had an interesting scenario for a DH game called the Emporer Reborn in which the Emporer truly WAS reborn...the Corpse on the Golden Throne having been truly dead for 10 millenia and all this "Astronomicon" and "feeding souls to the Emporer" was in fact a farce perpetreated by the Imperial Cult and those Inquisitors who supported it.

Now 10k later his spirit really is reborn, Christ like, into a new body and the child is born and raised in secret...the game began with his coming of Age...and the Inquisitorial factions warring to both keep him alive and lead the Imperium to a new age (Recongregator style) and those wishing to kill the reborn Emporer and keep things the way they are (Amalathian style). In the meantime the Emporer was too young to "go buckwild" but was capable of doing miracles (aka Christ again). There were of course extremists on both sides of this "secret war" with it slowly unravelling as the news of the Emporer Reborn began to spiral outwards.

Ultimately (had I had anybody to play the story out) my idea was that this could have developed into a Imperium wide civil war and finally outright war between different factions - Dark Angels vs. Space Wolves, Radicals vs. Puritans, Ecclesiarchy vs. Pramatists, etc etc etc...

The civil war alone could rage for a very long time...giving plenty of time to decide what might happen with the Emporer Reborn

Would this change the TT game? No...all of the factions of the Imperium would sitll be present just on different sides than normal...potentially new factions (Mechanicus springs to mind, as well as true Inquisitorial armies)...but still in the sense of preserving the game world and selling models I think things would remain the same...

Would it change DH? Well of course the storyline would change...but fundamentally it would still be in place...there would just be more BLATANT warfare between Inquisitors and the concept of who was Radical and Puritan and holy and heretic would change hugely...

IMHO radical changes like that do not advance the metaplot, but instead change the setting into something that is not 40K. It would be like having Sigmar return in WFRP or Christ return in the real world. Game over man, game over.

Simple fact, a galaxy wide schism would destroy the empire. The Orks and Tau and Chaos and even Dark Eldar and Eldar would take advantage of the turmoil and the Imperium would cease to exist.

Now a cult that thinks it has the emperor repborn (and maybe does) would be something everyone would pretty much want to wipe out or keep secret. Other wise you might as well run The Thousand Thrones adventure campaign set in 40Kiverse. And once the Imperium unravels, Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader and Deathwatch end. Just break out a copy of After the Bomb and play in Post-Apocalyptic 40K.

Again, this is all IMHO.

But I feel safe, GW wouldnt destroy their IP like that.

Peacekeeper_b said:

I do not think anyone here is wishing Games Workshop "wakens the Emperor"; it seems more just hypothetical thinking.