12 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

No I didn't.

They don't do the same thing at all . They both have Snipe, but they're vastly different.

The problem that it seems, is, you're not getting enough out of your E-Wings. You want a Snipe Platform that just Snipes. Or you want a Bomber Platform that just Bombs.

If you have the best of all worlds, you're going to have to pay for that flexibility - E-Wings do that. They're not Overcosted. They're costed using the same formulae as the Imperials - the difference is, you end up with models that can do a wide rage of things - it doesn't do many things awesomely , but you pay that point 'tax' in the ability to always HAVE a use for them... Bring your E-Wings and your enemy has minimal fighters? At least they can still Bomb. Bring Saber Squadron and the enemy has minimal fighters? Well, now you're throwing your High Speed 3 Hull Fighter to get a 50/50 on a Single Blue, with no chance of a Critical.

The same cost formulae is used for all of the models. The difference is the Rebels are, generally speaking, able to do more, ergo, they pay for all of those capabilities.

If you stuck a Black Bomber on an E-Wing, and didn't change the points - why would you bother taking any other fighter or Bomber ? Of course, you'd still consider Intel and Strategic and those Keywords - but for Fighting, and Bombing, you wouldn't bother with anything else. Ever.

For bombers the y-wing would be a third of the price also you said they where both used for nothing but sniping

Just now, starbat861 said:

For bombers the y-wing would be a third of the price also you said they where both used for nothing but sniping

::sigh::

Primary use is not only use.

You're misquoting me.

I'm done.

1 minute ago, Drasnighta said:

::sigh::

Primary use is not only use.

You're misquoting me.

I'm done.

Sorry this thread has shown me the only use being sniping it seemed like you where saying the same thing. Sorry about that

2 hours ago, Reinholt said:

So let us do some actual comparison work:

TIE Defender: 6 hull, 5 speed, 2.5 average damage vs squads, 44% chance of 1 accuracy, .75 average damage vs ships

E Wing: 5 hull, 4 speed, 2 average damage vs squads / 1.5 with snipe, 68% chance of accuracy / 58% with snipe, .75 damage vs ships

So on that basis, the TIE Defender is slightly better unless you can leverage snipe, at which point the selective engagement matters for the E-wing.

Exactly... you take in case you need to leverage snipe. Why else would you??

And if you do, then it more than pays for itself, because without it, Intel doesn't die and so you can't stop their bombers.

It's an opportunity cost.

7 minutes ago, starbat861 said:

Sorry this thread has shown me the only use being sniping it seemed like you where saying the same thing. Sorry about that

It is a primary Snipe, with decent use as bomber and fighter after it's main reason is completed.

I believe it is fairly priced; however, it's obvious that you disagree and no matter the discussion presented here, your mind will not be changed.

I was having a relative amount of sucess with a hard hitting boba inspired group of aces till my brother put me in my place with the inclusion of 4 well used e Wings recently, do not under estimate.

Wave 5 regionals:

Showed up in 10 fleets, got to top 4 3 times. (Comparable performance to yt24s and tie-defs)

They did show up in bottom quarter results more often than expected, so they aren't easy to use, but they are usable.

Plus Ewings have toryn Farr, BCC and all fighters follow me as options to buff them.

1 hour ago, Drasnighta said:

No, instead, the E-Wing has a Red Bomber die, whereas Saber has a single Blue.

-1 Speed, +3 Hull, + Red Bomber, -1 Blue die while sniping only .

Saber probably gets a points cut (or at least a rounding down) for being Unique, in their formulae.

But even then, could easily be worth 3 points.

The difference is, Saber is only good at one thing . Sniping. Nothing else. It is cheaper because that is all it can really do.

If you're going to use an E-Wing for Nothing but Sniping, of course it seems expensive. That's the point (of points!)

What he is trying to say is that Saber is a specialized squadron properly rounded up in points. Unlike the E-wing.

7 minutes ago, TallGiraffe said:

Plus Ewings have toryn Farr, BCC and all fighters follow me as options to buff them.

Oh you never faced a Saber + Howlrunner + velen rudor + ciena ree + fct did you?

4 hours ago, Kikaze said:

dude 16 dice will, on average, cause EIGHT DAMAGE. possibly more via accuracy blocks and/or torryn farr. of course they can kill Intel.

then what do his squadrons do? at worst, they will shoot at you for ONE TURN. it is in your hands to play the squadron game and properly block them for the rest of the game by engaging them.

let me make something clear: just because you wanna beat a bomber list via ship gunz, it doesnt mean you don't need to cleverly and properly play the squadron game with your fighter screen.

a bomber list still plays the ship game by defending/positioning against ship guns.

a ship gunz list still plays the squadron game by trying to shut down bombers-NO, you don't get to just ignore that part of the game.

So you are telling me to play properly the squadron game but you are not providing any evidence or facts to make this work on your own.

Just: take this 6 E-wings and do your stuff!!!

ok, 6 E-wings from wich you are going to activate 4 in a row, but you want the alpha so you will porbably have to move away from Toryn Farr, otherwise you have been already alphaed and engaged so snipe is useless.

That makes 4x3=12 blue dice naked with no rerolls. To take down a 4 hull scatter + brace ace you need at least 1 accuracy and 1 damage in each of those rolls. Again, good luck. Is not working for me that you put yourself in the best situation where your opponent is a dummie and you have everything in favor, because that rarely happens in the table top.

It happened, the planets aligned for you and you took down Dengar, now its opponent turn. Oops squadron command from ISD 6 beta strike on you, if he is going bombers he will tare apart your ships because they are unengaged. If he is going antisquadron say bb to your screen.

So yeah, you made snipe work congrats, your opponent had in dengar the best 20 points invested ever.

pleasure as always. thanks for a reply.

Ohhhhh snap xerpo is angry

Giled and I are about to throw down on vassal, hes running three e wings and tycho, for me this will be a perfect example of both the strenghts and weaknesses of the unit, hard alpha, but dont like having their noses bloodied, use as a finisher, expecting them to go toe to toe outnumbered and outgunned.... good luck with that.

40 minutes ago, xerpo said:

Oh you never faced a Saber + Howlrunner + velen rudor + ciena ree + fct did you?

I just use flak from ships. Following with squadrons. Burns em fast.

3 hours ago, starbat861 said:

Ok but how often do you see someone use an e-wing.

Yo.

http://xwingtactics.blogspot.com/2017/06/drawbridge-games-store-championship.html#more

3 minutes ago, BiggsIRL said:

Yo.

http://xwingtactics.blogspot.com/2017/06/drawbridge-games-store-championship.html#more

5 hours ago, xerpo said:

I tried my best to fit them in list with A wings + E-wings, in example, while the first engage and take the hits with counter the others can clean up from safety. Problem is that you will rarely have, as a rebel, a real good alpha initiative to do so and too often they get engaged before they can even use the snipe wich, in the end, is just the same battery as a normal A-wing.

I like how in the article says: No escort, but no escort needed if you play the squadron game properly. Like if there was not an opponent in the other side of the table avoiding your A's and engaging straight forward to your E's

Ewings don't have a problem. Starbat861 wants the Ewing to be a Rebel TIE Defender.

3 minutes ago, xerpo said:

I like how in the article says: No escort, but no escort needed if you play the squadron game properly. Like if there was not an opponent in the other side of the table avoiding your A's and engaging straight forward to your E's

Guess you just need to git gud.

In all seriousness though, what you should be doing with A's and E's is hold your A's back so that if your opponent wants to jump up all they can reach are your A's sitting comfortably in the anti-squadron flak of your fleet. E's are hiding back slightly further, in position to Snipe things that hit the A's, or jump forward with the A's and hit anything that wanders in too close. Then the E's follow up.

What tends to happen is your opponent can't command more than 3 or 4 squadrons in a single command, most lists these days just don't go with that quality of activation. So when some of his squadron are committed, you activate your remaining squadrons to do the following: Shara / Tycho pin his un-activated squadrons in place, while the E's hop in on the out of position squadrons. You have the flexibility to hit them either with the regular engagement anti-squadron armament, or Snipe if they have Counter , or you need the extra range.

Something like this, but in 2 dimensions.

Enemy squadrons -----Distance 5 ------ Tycho - A (Fleet ships) Shara - A (Fleet ships) E-Wings

5 hours ago, starbat861 said:

Sorry this thread has shown me the only use being sniping it seemed like you where saying the same thing. Sorry about that

In my opinion you need to re-examin how you use the E-Wings when you play. The E-Wing like many other rebel fighters are multi purpose and have both a primary and a secondary use.

You bring one or a few E-Wing squadron for the possibility of sniping something, it does not mean you will need that in every battle. You pay the extra few points for the versatility.

Personally I like the more single minded use of the Tie class and do better with them in general, but that does not mean that versatility of X/E-Wings and Tie-defenders is bad.

One multi squadron tactic that work is to throw out a few Y-Wing squadrons, preferably hiding in some asteroid fields threatening to strike enemy ship in the next turn. This will force the opponent to engage them and now you are in position to move your anti fighter squadrons into a place of your choosing.

Sniping is also great for engaging one thing and then snipe something else. Sniping also increase the range at which you can focus fire on a single enemy squadron to take it out without needing to reposition or if you lack Intel.

It has many uses.

I'm having fun exploring the many uses of E-wings in my Vassal summer tourney fleet. I've been only doing so-so overall (mostly due to lack of practice and/or innate skill), but my E-wings have been doing pretty well, considering I have no BCC or Toryn Farr in the fleet.

I'm leveraging 3x Relay, Yavaris, and AFFM on a Pelta to maximize E-wing threat range....which ends up being a HUGE area I can threaten with an alpha, even if I'm second player. Speed 5 + range 2 is awesome. Once they've eliminated a priority target or two, they can still duke it out with 4 blues, as my YT-1300 lumbers in to keep the E-wings alive.

Once engaged by an enemy, E-wings make it very easy to focus down one squadron at a time so I haven't felt the need for Intel. Yavaris-boosted E-wings are just icing on the cake.

Without BCC their bombing is lackluster (as are X-wings) so I clearly need to modify my fleet....but they're far from the worst thing you could spend 15 points on.

I ad a great time with two E wings (along with a couple of X wings, Nora and some Y wings) in my recent rebel fleet.

Ran them with an AFMk2 B Gallant haven with flight controllers and Toryn.

Snipe meant the could stay in the haven bubble. They did a lot of snipe damage including taking out mauler. Even backed up as bombers in the end game once the fighter war was won.

3 dice snipe isn't really effective unless you get great dice. But 4 dice with rerolls does a lot even to brace and scatters.

11 hours ago, xerpo said:

ok, 6 E-wings from wich you are going to activate 4 in a row, but you want the alpha so you will porbably have to move away from Toryn Farr, otherwise you have been already alphaed and engaged so snipe is useless

Moving out of range is more a problem with Toryn Farr that is shared by every fighter. In fact E-wings actually partially mitigate this problem by effectively increasing the range of Toryn Farr by 1, as they can snipe for 1 distance closer to the allied ship. Still I you are moving out of Toryn's range, you either have had a good opportunity present itself, or are doing something wrong.

If your fighters are engaged, and snipe 'is useless' just some observations; E-wings are speed 4, with range 2. Thus before your own alpha, they should be well back with your fleet. If your enemy does see the need to jump on them, then your advantage is that your ships can AA on the enemy fighters. The threat of snipe may have been what pushed your opponent into over extending their fighters.

Finally, even if you are engaged, you can use your snipe attack to avoid counter damage, which can potentially be counter 4 + reroll, see below.

11 hours ago, xerpo said:

That makes 4x3=12 blue dice naked with no rerolls. To take down a 4 hull scatter + brace ace you need at least 1 accuracy and 1 damage in each of those rolls. Again, good luck.

You are right, taking out Dengar will require some luck. Consider, are there better targets for you to take out 1st? Dengar doesn't offer all that much in himself, and snipe offers a solid counter to Dengar's own ability. For instance, in a Dengar, Tie fighter/interceptor swarm, Mauler, Howlrunner, plus bombers, maybe taking out the simple fighter/interceptors while bypassing that counter 2 + 1 from Howl + 1 from Dengar + 1 reroll would be better.

11 hours ago, xerpo said:

It happened, the planets aligned for you and you took down Dengar, now its opponent turn. Oops squadron command from ISD 6 beta strike on you, if he is going bombers he will tare apart your ships because they are unengaged. If he is going antisquadron say bb to your screen.

If he is 'going bombers' why not simply engage his fighters the normal way? Or 'sacrifice' the last 1-2 E-wing/s to activate (or because you are smart and have a mixed fighter force, some X-wings/A-wings/heroes) to engage and thus force them to activate their own fighters.

As I see the main issue is that many consider the E-Wings like the pike infantry of squadrons they go in, fire their first round form afar then start brawling.

But they are more like light cavalry or cavalry archers. They don't want to be the main fighting body, they jump all around the place and snipe opponents and only jump in with their main guns when they need to.

I think the rhymer FAQ nerf will assist as well. Having to move a lot closer will bring more opportunities for sniping key components of the imp squadron ball.