4 hours ago, GhostofNobodyInParticular said:

I finally found time to read this, and I must say:

'Engine Techs comes stapled to the Gladiator. You CAN try something new and wacky where you DON'T have Engine Techs in the Gladiator's Support Team slot, but I'm gonna judge you. I don't even PLAY that side and I'm judging you.'

The last time I filled the Support Team slot on the Glad was about a year ago. . . ever since my GSDs are GSD+APT+OE, and if I can afford it Demo. . . it just gets too expensive to fit an 8 point upgrade. . . so. . .

That 8 point upgrade offers unparalleled speed and positioning control as well as alpha-strike capability (particularly on Demolisher). Successful Gladiator usage depends on those things and I'd never leave home without Engine Techs on my Gladiators, similarly to how I wouldn't leave home without Gunnery Team on my ISD-IIs. It's expensive, but it's a good investment.

Or to put it another way: if I'm looking to bring cheaper black-dice ships that get by just fine with less upgrades, I prefer Raiders.

11 minutes ago, Snipafist said:

That 8 point upgrade offers unparalleled speed and positioning control as well as alpha-strike capability (particularly on Demolisher). Successful Gladiator usage depends on those things and I'd never leave home with Engine Techs on my Gladiators, similarly to how I wouldn't leave home without Gunnery Team on my ISD-IIs. It's expensive, but it's a good investment.

Or to put it another way: if I'm looking to bring cheaper black-dice ships that get by just fine with less upgrades, I prefer Raiders.

Well most people do not even consider raiders as a "cheap black dice" solution since the gladiator is a superior ship to the untrained eye. So they use gsds for cheap black dice. I was one of them till i read your blog.

5 minutes ago, Kikaze said:

Well most people do not even consider raiders as a "cheap black dice" solution since the gladiator is a superior ship to the untrained eye. I was one of them till i read your blog.

Aww, thanks! I'm always happy to hear if I've helped people - writing the blog has been a really good experience in that regard.

22 minutes ago, Snipafist said:

Successful Gladiator usage depends on those things and I'd never leave home without Engine Techs on my Gladiators, similarly to how I wouldn't leave home without Gunnery Team on my ISD-IIs.

I would agree with you here as far as Demolisher is concerned, however in general it pushes Gladiator to a different price range and isn't always affordable. Ironically, in one of my latest tourney fleets I didn't have Gunnery Teams on ISD2 (and didn't have Engine Techs on the Gladiator). (And no, raiders didn't fit the profile as they didn't have support slot and I already had 2 in the fleet )

33 minutes ago, Snipafist said:

That 8 point upgrade offers unparalleled speed and positioning control as well as alpha-strike capability (particularly on Demolisher). Successful Gladiator usage depends on those things and I'd never leave home without Engine Techs on my Gladiators, similarly to how I wouldn't leave home without Gunnery Team on my ISD-IIs. It's expensive, but it's a good investment.

Or to put it another way: if I'm looking to bring cheaper black-dice ships that get by just fine with less upgrades, I prefer Raiders.

11 minutes ago, PT106 said:

I would agree with you here as far as Demolisher is concerned, however in general it pushes Gladiator to a different price range and isn't always affordable. Ironically, in one of my latest tourney fleets I didn't have Gunnery Teams on ISD2 (and didn't have Engine Techs on the Gladiator). (And no, raiders didn't fit the profile as they didn't have support slot and I already had 2 in the fleet )

Basically what PT106 said above - Maybe for Demo if I can afford it I use it. I just find it a bit too expensive in terms of 'too many points on one ship that's fragile and wants to be at close range'. I also seldom put GT on my ISDs. . . I've only recently started doing that, preferring a sparsely upgrades ECM/SW-7 ship. . . (if it's a -II), or plain. Essentially, I find that many upgrades sets that people take for granted are optional extras for me. . . we've had part of this conversation before, concerning whether Demo is mandatory. For me most stuff are optional unless the ship uses them to enhance its basic role: GSD/MC30/Raider: OE+APT (or Flechettes on the latter if appropriate), HMC80/AFMII: ECM+EA, ISD: SW-7+ECM+XI7, LMC80: Spinals/XI7 etc. . .

Anyways. . . maybe I should try to fly 'em as you do, and I'll get better at 'em. . .

4 minutes ago, GhostofNobodyInParticular said:

Basically what PT106 said above - Maybe for Demo if I can afford it I use it. I just find it a bit too expensive in terms of 'too many points on one ship that's fragile and wants to be at close range'. I also seldom put GT on my ISDs. . . I've only recently started doing that, preferring a sparsely upgrades ECM/SW-7 ship. . . (if it's a -II), or plain. Essentially, I find that many upgrades sets that people take for granted are optional extras for me. . . we've had part of this conversation before, concerning whether Demo is mandatory. For me most stuff are optional unless the ship uses them to enhance its basic role: GSD/MC30/Raider: OE+APT (or Flechettes on the latter if appropriate), HMC80/AFMII: ECM+EA, ISD: SW-7+ECM+XI7, LMC80: Spinals/XI7 etc. . .

Anyways. . . maybe I should try to fly 'em as you do, and I'll get better at 'em. . .

I mean it's up to you of course but for me I find Gladiators live and die by their maneuvering so anything that assists with that is top priority for me when it comes time to upgrade. I used to fly them fairly bare-bones as you do (back in wave one-ish/two-ish) and found I much preferred them with Engine Techs. I agree with you and @PT106 that it's more important for Demolisher than non-Demolisher Gladiators, but I still consider it to be pretty important even for the non-Demolisher Gladiators for that reason.

4 minutes ago, Snipafist said:

I mean it's up to you of course but for me I find Gladiators live and die by their maneuvering so anything that assists with that is top priority for me when it comes time to upgrade.

This is actually true. I played Gladiators and played against Gladiators multiple times and I'm much less afraid of a Demolisher without Engine Techs as it becomes significantly more predictable and easier to trap. However, one of the main damage dealers is not the only role gladiator can do. I used GSD in a support role to a Christmas beast where I wanted my GSD to die and there ET didn't synergize at all as I wanted everyone to be in formation (and therefore speed 3 max), ET made the ship more expensive (and for a ship you expect to lose its not a good trait) and without a supply of Nav (commands or tokens) ET is a dead weight and I had other plans for that GSD command stack.

2 hours ago, GhostofNobodyInParticular said:

Basically what PT106 said above - Maybe for Demo if I can afford it I use it. I just find it a bit too expensive in terms of 'too many points on one ship that's fragile and wants to be at close range'. I also seldom put GT on my ISDs. . . I've only recently started doing that, preferring a sparsely upgrades ECM/SW-7 ship. . . (if it's a -II), or plain. Essentially, I find that many upgrades sets that people take for granted are optional extras for me. . . we've had part of this conversation before, concerning whether Demo is mandatory. For me most stuff are optional unless the ship uses them to enhance its basic role: GSD/MC30/Raider: OE+APT (or Flechettes on the latter if appropriate), HMC80/AFMII: ECM+EA, ISD: SW-7+ECM+XI7, LMC80: Spinals/XI7 etc. . .

Anyways. . . maybe I should try to fly 'em as you do, and I'll get better at 'em. . .

See, the entire point of an ISD is to get that front arc on as many targets as possible, and to kill things, operationally in that order. @PT106 and I disagree on whether or not it's worth it to have GT on I-1s, but the threat range of a GT I-2 is enormous. You're literally doubling the dice you're throwing at something otherwise taking a side arc at the same range. And as far as other upgrades go, I never leave starbase without Leading Shots onboard. Probably three or four times a game (understanding that most of those games there are two ISDs with Leading Shots on the table) I use it to improve my results significantly, whether I'm trying for more damage out of those hellaciously inconsistent reds, or rerolling the entire universe in search of the vaunted Accuracy to kill a flotilla. I can't swear to it since I haven't been tracking it, but I really doubt there were more than an insignificant fraction of cases I would have been better served by SW-7s over Leading Shots. I understand the principle of limited upgrades, but I very very rarely have an ISD without a Weapons Team (the tiny fraction of cases it's not GT it's Flight Controllers or OE on an I-1) and some sort of reroll somewhere (Leading Shots, DTT, Vader, actually no, no Vader, I don't like him).

42 minutes ago, GiledPallaeon said:

See, the entire point of an ISD is to get that front arc on as many targets as possible, and to kill things, operationally in that order. @PT106 and I disagree on whether or not it's worth it to have GT on I-1s, but the threat range of a GT I-2 is enormous. You're literally doubling the dice you're throwing at something otherwise taking a side arc at the same range. And as far as other upgrades go, I never leave starbase without Leading Shots onboard. Probably three or four times a game (understanding that most of those games there are two ISDs with Leading Shots on the table) I use it to improve my results significantly, whether I'm trying for more damage out of those hellaciously inconsistent reds, or rerolling the entire universe in search of the vaunted Accuracy to kill a flotilla. I can't swear to it since I haven't been tracking it, but I really doubt there were more than an insignificant fraction of cases I would have been better served by SW-7s over Leading Shots. I understand the principle of limited upgrades, but I very very rarely have an ISD without a Weapons Team (the tiny fraction of cases it's not GT it's Flight Controllers or OE on an I-1) and some sort of reroll somewhere (Leading Shots, DTT, Vader, actually no, no Vader, I don't like him).

I had a pretty similar argument with the H1MC80 myself: http://cannotgetyourshipout.blogspot.com/2017/04/h1mc80-space-hoagie-of-doooooom.html

Only big ship i can legit see SW7s making sense is a Star Cruiser LMC80, but your reds are really just supplementing your other dice there. And how do you not like Vader? Vader and ISD-Is are great together!

23 minutes ago, geek19 said:

I had a pretty similar argument with the H1MC80 myself: http://cannotgetyourshipout.blogspot.com/2017/04/h1mc80-space-hoagie-of-doooooom.html

Only big ship i can legit see SW7s making sense is a Star Cruiser LMC80, but your reds are really just supplementing your other dice there. And how do you not like Vader? Vader and ISD-Is are great together!

I can surprise you here as I had a pretty deadly ISD2 build with SW7, Veteran Gunners and TRC. The key concept was to maximize guaranteed damage (especially from side arcs)