Yay for Atlanta's mildly absurd tournament density this season! Got to go to another Store Championship tournament today at Hobbytown USA in Marietta (one of Atlanta's larger suburbs to its northwest, for those not familiar with the area), and had a lot of fun. Congratulations to @Boston1809 on his victory today, and everyone else who showed up. Much to Boston's disappointment, I did not bring Motti's Dreadnoughts because I felt like a change of pace. (He has since been promised an opportunity to see the list in action at a later tournament this season, we only have three more.) Instead I had a very heavily modified version of @BiggsIRL 's Vassal Summer Tournament fleet. I liked the concept, it's a Rebel attempt at a super-tanky build like the other dreadnought list is for the Imperials, so I took it and ran it straight out to the extreme with not a care in the world where I past the point of diminishing returns. (It appears I past it by a few leagues . We're going to get to that.) I learned a lot, so this is probably going to be fairly long after the battle reports. I also apologize in advance, as per usual I attempted to take pictures every round, but that only happened some rounds, and some rounds that it did after a few ships had moved. I am also writing this very tired, and less interested in the individual games than the overall analysis, so please bear with me.

Garm's Super-Heavy Dreadnoughts
Author: GiledPallaeon

Faction: Rebel Alliance
Points: 398/400

Commander: Garm Bel Iblis

Assault Objective: Advanced Gunnery
Defense Objective: Contested Outpost
Navigation Objective: Dangerous Territory

[ flagship ] MC80 Assault Cruiser (114 points)
- Garm Bel Iblis ( 25 points)
- Projection Experts ( 6 points)
- Reinforced Blast Doors ( 5 points)
- Advanced Projectors ( 6 points)
- Leading Shots ( 4 points)
= 160 total ship cost

MC80 Assault Cruiser (114 points)
- Ahsoka Tano ( 2 points)
- Projection Experts ( 6 points)
- Reinforced Blast Doors ( 5 points)
- Advanced Projectors ( 6 points)
- Leading Shots ( 4 points)
= 137 total ship cost

Modified Pelta -class Assault Ship (56 points)
- Toryn Farr ( 7 points)
- Projection Experts ( 6 points)
- Shields to Maximum! ( 6 points)
= 75 total ship cost

1 Han Solo ( 26 points)

First game was one of two Rebel-Rebel matches of the day, squaring off against an Ackbar list with Defiance , Intel Officer, XX-9s, ECMs, SW-7s, and something else rude that escapes me (when the lists are posted over the next few days I'll link them here), two MC30 Scouts with Gunnery Teams, one of those with Intel Officer, an Ackbar flagship flotilla, and four A-wings counting dear old Shara. I had bid (he was 400), so I opted to go first (when given a choice in the matter, Gladiator s and MC30s will not be given first/last, and with most of my builds, last is inevitable). We played Targeting Beacons, two hidden in the corner, and two that covered the two MC80s for most of the game. Picture after setup and deployment below. I'm the near fleet, and Ackbar is off in the corner of the picture.

Since it may not be completely clear, Garm's dreadnought is on the right, Ahsoka's on the left, with the Pelta in the middle. Ahsoka's ship is intentionally far enough out to try to herd the MC30s between the two battleships.

This is the state of the field c. round 3 (or so). Stephen has taken my bait, and the MC30s are now taking the main battery of both MC80s. Flip side, his Gunnery Teams means Ackbar has already paid for himself, and he's far from done hurling red dice around. As per all three games, the Pelta spent the first two turns putting a MC80 between it and danger, and the remaining four maintaining that status quo as best it could.

This is from a round or so later. The IO MC30 has bought it by a ram from the flagship, but the weight of fire is slowly eating into both ships. Neither has taken truly serious hull damage, but both are running short on shields and still absorbing large amounts of damage.

This is unfortunately my last picture c. Round 4. The other 30 is dead, and the flagship ended up perfectly crossing Defiance 's T after her maneuver, but at such close range that Defiance had both side arcs on target, and I'm out of redirects (and shields to put them on). Here is where I made my error: because of the geometry, perfectly parallel to the flagship was the Pelta . I had first player, and tried to move out of the double arc, but tried to turn, rammed the Pelta , and got stuck back where I was. Had I gone straight, the double side arc could have become a double arc with the front arc, much less intimidating. Could he have still nailed Garm? (Spoiler, Garm died, and Defiance (and Ackbar, obviously) did not.) Probably. If he did, he probably would have expended all the good dice rolls he needed to murder the other MC80 (practically full hull, but minimal shields remaining). Either way, this game ended with a 21 (or so, paper not in front of me) point margin in my favor.

Notes from this game. The idea of always keeping an MC80 between the Pelta and serious danger is definitely the way to go, but the frigate has to be careful to not block the battleship into a bad position/my helmsmen need to not be so g****** greedy. Han loved this game, bouncing around, bombing MC30s and sniping A-wings of opportunity (he bagged two with minor flak aid), so in these situations, Captain Solo is actually pretty good.

Game no. 2 was a little weird. My opponent did not have an admiral, and his first opponent hadn't called him on it. I believe the latter part was because his first opponent was one of a pair of new players who had barely been in the game and only kind of had enough for fleets (they bounced after round 2, but both played well and seemed to enjoy it; they grabbed an ISD and a H1MC80 on their way out). In any case, the atmosphere was fun and friendly, and I was not going to win significantly by arguing the point, so I let it slide and tipped off the remaining regular players. We all realized I was probably right, and just let it all go for the sake of the game. (He was also decently new, but had a pretty high opinion of himself and his understanding of the game mechanics, which was mostly justified. He ended up in fourth of the final six, but so much swag was handed out no one really cared.) He had a heavily loaded I-1 Relentless , an OP V-2, Suppressor with BCC, Howl, Black Squadron, two TIE Fighters, Saber Squadron, Rhymer, Gamma Squadron, IG-88, and Tempest Squadron. He had bid, opted to go first, and we played my Fire Lanes. This was the board state once everything was on the table.

After the flagship's ignominious death in the last game, I decided that this time I was going to try to put Ahsoka's ship in the serious danger. To that end, her ship is the one nearer the picture, set up to deal with the ISD's front arc, and Garm is on the other side of the Pelta . Unfortunately, that effort failed miserably. I also ended up getting more use out of obstacles to bounce Han around than I probably have in the rest of my Armada career combined. He ended up bagging a TIE, Black Squadron, and Rhymer when all was said and done.

This is around the top of turn two. Originally Garm's ship had planned to come in at speed 1, but to not cede too many Fire Lanes tokens I ended up accelerating. With another nav command this turn Ahsoka jumped the ISD and ended up making a parallel pass down its outside flank before trying to swing around. A flak shot this turn out her port side ended up helping Han find the two TIE Fighter kills he got.

This is where things started to go downhill. Flag is at close range of the VSD, and starts getting pummeled, between VSD double arcs, after this ISD side arcs, and those godforsaken bombers. (I couldn't kill Tempest, so I just danced around the edge of the Rhymer ball with Han. It worked out in the end when he survived the match on two hull.)

Like I said, downhill. Ahsoka has eaten an ISD front arc, but only one. The issue now is trying to continue to deal damage to the ship, which just seems to shrug it off the same way the MC80 shrugged off the front arc shot. As my opponent put it, that duel was something of a slap fight. Meanwhile Flag is starting to buckle under the repeated assaults. Unfortunately that is also my last picture, so from here: Flag destroyed the VSD, but needed both shots to do it, meaning Suppressor survived her close encounter with a real warship, and ran away from the other vengeful battleship. After this, the ISD moved forward and landed on the asteroid in front of the Pelta , it threw a front arc shot and side-stepped neatly into the ISD's side arc, and both ships went on their merry way. This game's kinetic score was about as close as the first match, but for several middle turns the ISD was on top of one Fire Lanes token, meaning I came out ahead on every turn save Turn 1. Total tokens was four to thirteen in my favor, leading to a 124ish win. Good enough.

At this point, everyone still playing is within two tournament points of each other, and much of the final standings will be determined by MoV and how big the last couple games are. What this unfortunately meant for me was that I ended up facing a list that I had been circling for most of the tournament, a Cracken 4x TRCR90 list with Admonition , and three YT-2400s and Shara for flavor/speedbump. Spoiler alert, this game ended 232 to zero. Yes, zero. I killed nothing. Two CR90s flew away after whiffs on red dice broadsides turn 6, while a triple miss on the YTs turn 5 meant that Flag survived with two hull, preventing a complete rout. Credit to @Valca for a well-played game and a deadly list. This list exposed the flaws the other games had risen to the surface, then slammed wedges in the cracks and went to work with sledgehammers. We played my Superior Positions, because he had a seven point bid, and why in God's name would you not take first/last with Admo ? That's like not taking it with Demo . Board state after deployment here:

Again, I tried really hard to keep Flag out of danger, so Garm's dreadnought is the nearer warship. Ahsoka is the far ship, and the Solar Corona is the near edge in this picture. I'm not going to say that changing my deployment strategy would have changed the result of the game, but this was terrible. The idea was that Ahsoka ran ahead at speed 2, and Garm would fall in line behind her at speed 1, the mechanical inverse of my ISD sweeping tactics. Unfortunately, I missed one trick: these are not ISDs. In every other game, the MC80's speed was a non-issue, and ET was definitely not necessary. In this game, it became a dear want, only because this got screwed all up.

This is halfway through round 3. Admonition came in hard and fast, and ended up double-arcing Ahsoka's battleship after her turn 2 maneuver. Top of turn 3, that wailed away on the poor dreadnought, which moved and fired, and died shortly thereafter to the almost literal hail of TRC shots. God, I hate TRCs. They're annoying with ISDs, but it was so much worse here. (I think I understand why, but we'll get back to this.)

Here we are a while later, after Ahsoka's explosion. The Pelta has ended up way out in front, partly due to attempting to evade Admonition (in vain as this picture happens to capture), and partially to try to kill something .

Unfortunately, that was my last picture for this tournament. After this, Admonition was going too fast to be relevant, but didn't fly off the board, and the TRCR90s circled their prey after sending Toryn and the frigate to join Ahsoka in the icy black void, even as the battleship vainly fired salvo after salvo at targets entering and leaving her broadside arcs. This battle was probably one of the most frustrating of my entire career, especially coming from a long litany of Imperial Star Destroyer games, where a small CR90 in my strong arc is dead, not wandering away not having taken any hull damage. Another frustrating aspect was that this was probably my best tourney showing, both record and relative placement wise. All said and done, it was great fun and a great day, but this fleet needs an overhaul. And I mean an overhaul.

Roses about this fleet: the regen worked almost as advertised. StM helped some, and AP put in work after work. Being able to effectively ignore where fire was coming from really made a difference in a couple of cases, particularly the first two games in keeping the MC80's on the table for a while after they might have otherwise started actually dying. Rose: like the other dreadnought list, it's deadly simple to play, command simplistic, and fairly straightforward all the way around. Rose: Han was great. He died in game three, after having all three YTs sit on him for two turns. That was mostly my fault, he jumped up to bomb a CR90 (not that it made a **** difference) and got pounced. I was not nearly as cagey with him and obstacles this game, something I'll have to improve. I will freely admit that when he came out, I wrote him off as hilariously expensive, but between seven hull, two braces, his ability, and hitting like a TIE Defender, he's got a convert. Some of my lighter squadron Rebel theory lists might get him worked in just for that. Rose: Garm is actually pretty decent. (Yes, yes, I'm late to the party. These were my first three games with the bugger.) Mass tokens is very nice, especially with Ahsoka leaning over to say, "What do you mean that's a [token I don't need]? All I see is [token I actually needed]." Garm is not my favorite Rebel commander (I don't have enough play with practically any of them to feel confident in that assessment), but he's earned his way into the black permanently as far as I'm concerned.

Thorn: I doubt it made much of a difference in most of the matches today, but the fleet is slow enough to be fairly predictable. I'm not certain that actually upgrading to Engine Techs, mostly because I'm not certain that I'm willing to lock down my command stack/tokens to use it. Thorn: on paper this fleet can regen at a ridiculous rate (with Projection Experts all targeting one ship, that's eight shields in one turn, more than a CR90 has to begin with), but in practice, PE is probably getting ditched. It got used a couple times, and forgotten several more, but on balance I'm not sure they made a difference. Rarely was only one ship taking the brunt of the fire so much so its companions could safely repair it instead of their own incoming damage. The Pelta might keep it, but the MC80s are losing it. Thorn the size of a tiger claw: this fleet can't kill for ****. Its firepower is a little anemic under the best of circumstances unless you let it pin you down, but even then, it struggles to create large, consistent amounts of damage every turn. Don't get me wrong, I like Garm, but a leading contender for a new Admiral is old Fishface himself. Final thorn, shared with its counterpart: really low activations, while not insurmountable, is a pain. Especially in my final game, I had more than one situation where the regen abilities of this fleet were wasted by the fact that it had to use them before it took fire. To a certain extent that can be mitigated by careful, practiced play, and to a certain extent I need to remember I was the one crazy/brave/dumb enough to bring a double pickle list to a tournament somewhat seriously, but we'll see. It's still, like the nav issues for the Imperial list, something I will have to very carefully learn with repeated use.

I think, like its Imperial counterpart, this list has great potential, and it's probably just in need of two things: refinement and practice. However, unlike its Imperial counterpart, this one is probably farther away from its best iteration than I would like to think. Barring further experimentation reversing today's findings, we're probably switching to Command Cruisers with a single Defensive Retro, Advanced Projectors. I used RBDs once, and should have used it a second time for only two cards (yeah, I got greedy, I know; it's probably my worst habit). However, I'm just not convinced that the red and the second DR are worth the eight point premium an Assault Cruiser is. In a 450 pt environment, I'm definitely keeping the Assaults and swapping RBDs for Redundant Shields (bet you never thought you'd see someone seriously consider that card), but to do that here, I have to drop the PEs on the MC80s for only a six point gain, and actually that's not as bad as I thought now that I think about it. *furiously scribbles in fleet builders

All in all, I think I probably haven't found a "winner" per se, but I am very excited to see where I can get this list. If anyone has any ideas, I'm very interested to hear ideas. I'm fiddling with another dual MC80 list like this one, as well as an 80/AF2 list as well. The latter is mostly to fit Ackbar in, because this list needs more punch, and it has to come from somewhere. Dropping to an AF2 might also let me squeeze in a CR90 maybe, depending on overall configurations, so we'll see. Once I've got something I think isn't totally terrible and I should be ashamed of, I'll put it in the fleet builds subforum. Advice from Rebel players either on keeping MC80s alive or managing to actually hurt things with them without Ackbar would be greatly appreciated. Thanks a lot guys; good luck, good hunting, and Godspeed.

Some additional thoughts I meant to write into the above, but didn't make it.I believe that the reason the ISD dreadnought list works as well as it does, and this doesn't is actually three reasons. First, the Interdictor gives the Imperial version objective control this list just doesn't have. The ISDs can trade down to a degree and still win thanks to the objectives. Second, while the regen average of the Imperial list is lower than the MC80 list, it's got a spike regen from the RBDs that are almost always used, and it's got more hull to begin with. The third reason is tied up in the devastating defeat to Cracken: the ISD list usually doesn't need as much regen for as long as the MC80s did because the ISDs are much more efficient about destroying targets. The Rebel list, based on the limited experience today, is probably less likely to have the huge swinginess the Imperial counterpart has displayed, but for the same reason, it's got a much harder time getting a runaway win, especially in destruction of enemy forces. You don't have to regen if the shooter can't hit you because he's been spaced. We're going to have to see how, if at all in the case of the first point here, I can work them into a second-generation version of this list.

Glad Han Solo worked out for you as fighter cover. Wouldn't have thought to try using him!

Toryn Farr is a bit of an odd add, especially when you've already got Leading Shots on your big guns. I'd rather have gone with Major Derlin on one of the big boys, or Lando. Or maybe Defiance on one of them.

For strategy criticism, see what you did with protecting the Pelta? Do the opposite of that! The Pelta should be at least covering a flank and drawing fire, because it's the only thing in that list you can afford to trade. Plus it gets it near the fighter scrum, and it's best use in terms of attacks an anti-squadron barrage.

5 hours ago, BiggsIRL said:

Glad Han Solo worked out for you as fighter cover. Wouldn't have thought to try using him!

Toryn Farr is a bit of an odd add, especially when you've already got Leading Shots on your big guns. I'd rather have gone with Major Derlin on one of the big boys, or Lando. Or maybe Defiance on one of them.

For strategy criticism, see what you did with protecting the Pelta? Do the opposite of that! The Pelta should be at least covering a flank and drawing fire, because it's the only thing in that list you can afford to trade. Plus it gets it near the fighter scrum, and it's best use in terms of attacks an anti-squadron barrage.

Solo was very impressive. Given that he survived the TIE ball and did not the Rogues, I'm inclined to believe I wasn't cautious enough in my third game. He's definitely got a fan now.

Toryn was to improve anti-squad results without resorting to Leading Shots, but I don't think I took more than one or two total anti-squad salvos. She is not in any of the second-gen lists.

If I'm using the Pelta more aggressively, which is definitely something I'm willing to try, should I arm it with Flechettes or APTs for more bite? I've never used FT outside a OE Raider context, so I'm wary that it will have much effect. If I'm doing Ackbar, should I up to the Command version for Disposable Capacitors?

EDIT: It occurs to me that External Racks might be the play.

14 hours ago, GiledPallaeon said:

You don't have to regen if the shooter can't hit you because he's been spaced.

Defense is fine, and you managed some some solid wins, but at the end of the day you will face an aggressive fleet that just overwhelms your defenses and that loss is going to be bigger than the wins you can get.

Disregarding that, I was recently shown the incredible power of 3 vcx's from a flight controllered assault frigate with toryn far rerolls. It butchered my squadron compliment of defenders without taking any losses. Did I mention he also brought Han? It was superb.

I think adding that amount of objective control to this list could set you on the right path to absolutely dominating in fire lanes/sensor net making your second player option so scary those Demo/Admo lists will be picking second with their bid to prevent it. Then you pick one of their token based objectives and completely mitigate it. Or they take fire lanes and you invite them into your overlapping fire while you score points every round.

If you are going to play defensive, i guess my point is, you need to be defending something that is passively winning you the game.

16 hours ago, GiledPallaeon said:

(He was also decently new, but had a pretty high opinion of himself and his understanding of the game mechanics, which was mostly justified. He ended up in fourth of the final six, but so much swag was handed out no one really cared.)

I do not have a high opinion of myself, I just happen to be smart enough to realize how wonderful I am! Anyway I apologize to all 3 of my opponents for my violation of the rules about the fleet admiral, this was my first tournament and I will not make that mistake again. Fortunately, I placed out of the money.

That sounds deadly, and like I need to buy VCXs. We'll see when that becomes a possibility. Might have to see what Vassal shows that can do.

Sounds like this was a great tourney!

Congrats @Boston1809 !

16 hours ago, stephen_harris70 said:

I do not have a high opinion of myself, I just happen to be smart enough to realize how wonderful I am! Anyway I apologize to all 3 of my opponents for my violation of the rules about the fleet admiral, this was my first tournament and I will not make that mistake again. Fortunately, I placed out of the money.

Like I said, you played well, and we all preferred the atmosphere to an argument. It all worked out in the end. I look forward to our future matches.

It was a lot of fun, and great to see @GiledPallaeon and @Valca again! @Valca fulfilled my prophecy from my first Regionals, and beat me solidly with his TRC CR90 list, but due to the three round structure and a 10-1 and a 9-2 I was able to just barely hold onto the top spot.

Two things made me super happy:

1) I gave my first round opponent and his buddy who was also playing some advice on what to buy next, recommending a Gozanti and Imperial Fighters II to round out his fleet, and his buddy some thoughts on the MC30 as a good purchase. They completely ignored me and bought an ISD and Home One. Which, again, pleases me no end. Big ships with lots of guns for the win, and I hope they return for more tournaments in the area!

2) Being very, very lucky. The key play of the last game was my Demo sitting in the front arc of a kitted out Defiance MC80, and having double arc. I fired bottom of my turn, pushed three damage through to the hull, and figured even with 3 shields on the left and 1 on the right, I was going to be able to fire side and front and get the kill. Until my opponent asked "Is it the ship phase now?" and discarded Reinforced Blast Doors. Argh! Rolled four damage out the right side, he redirected 3, took one to the hull. Front arc expanded launchers + con fire got me to 8 damage, which was just barely enough... yikes...

Thanks to HobbyTown USA for hosting, it was a great venue and definitely worth the trip down!

Great recap Boston! Thank you for putting the time and effort to post this.