The new format is a great improvement.

@theaficionado where do we see Drokkatta's Gender?

54 minutes ago, TallGiraffe said:

@theaficionado where do we see Drokkatta's Gender?

Good question! I thought I'd seen someone refer to Drokatta as a her before, so I just figured she was female.

On 26/5/2017 at 2:48 AM, theaficionado said:

Elite Sentry Droid *NEW*

So it turns out that an extra die in an attack really matters, particularly with an in-built re-roll and double attack. Whereas Multi-Shot is a huge letdown at 2 dice on the regulars, at three it actually becomes a really efficient way to deal out a ton of damage quickly. After some playing around with them, I'm actually really quite surprised at how effective they are. Could they actually break into Tier 1?

I think they actually can, they hit really really hard (way better than eWeequays) and even each of their "brutality" attack deals around the same damage of their scum counterpart.
They ain't hunter, true, but they are both droid and trooper, so there's plenty of good cards you can play with them, such as Call The Vanguard.
Their 10 cost is pretty high, true, but lately every list has their 1 or 2 overcosted cards (Luke Jedi / Han / eRangers, IG-88, Vader + DbH, and so on) so who knows what the future might be showing to us soon...

27 minutes ago, erlucius90 said:

I think they actually can, they hit really really hard (way better than eWeequays) and even each of their "brutality" attack deals around the same damage of their scum counterpart.
They ain't hunter, true, but they are both droid and trooper, so there's plenty of good cards you can play with them, such as Call The Vanguard.
Their 10 cost is pretty high, true, but lately every list has their 1 or 2 overcosted cards (Luke Jedi / Han / eRangers, IG-88, Vader + DbH, and so on) so who knows what the future might be showing to us soon...

They don't hit way better than an eQuay. Check out the dice yourself on http://mattyellen.github.io/imperial-assault-calculator/ the graph of a prowling eQuay is almost identical to the charged shot of an eSentry. And you save yourself 3 points.

3 minutes ago, TheUnsullied said:

They don't hit way better than an eQuay. Check out the dice yourself on http://mattyellen.github.io/imperial-assault-calculator/ the graph of a prowling eQuay is almost identical to the charged shot of an eSentry. And you save yourself 3 points.

In terms of base damage, Sentries overcome the Quays, Prowl requires an action, so the Quays ain't always shooting with the base surge, then ofc their special abilities pump them and so on (Weequays are still meta defining ofc)
Sentries move better than Quays since they don't have to lose actions to prowl, so the use you get of them is different by the turn situation (since Palpatine can make them shoot once more if they are well placed).
Then everything else depends on the list you're going to play

55 minutes ago, erlucius90 said:

In terms of base damage, Sentries overcome the Quays, Prowl requires an action, so the Quays ain't always shooting with the base surge, then ofc their special abilities pump them and so on (Weequays are still meta defining ofc)
Sentries move better than Quays since they don't have to lose actions to prowl, so the use you get of them is different by the turn situation (since Palpatine can make them shoot once more if they are well placed).
Then everything else depends on the list you're going to play

Going to have to disagree. At this point eQuays are the one of the main sets units that we compare all figures towards in competitive play and I don't think the eSentries hold a candle to them. They don't have a surge for 2 and you're paying 3 more for a worse reroll ability and the rare chance you are in range to shoot twice. And the double shot only has a 66% chance to do 3 damage! Of course that's before the reroll so it'll be slightly higher but it's not near where you'd like it to be.

Also you have to realize that even though CC are getting better for Troopers and Droids they still aren't near as good as big 3-4 hunter cards.

3 hours ago, erlucius90 said:

Their 10 cost is pretty high, true, but lately every list has their 1 or 2 overcosted cards (Luke Jedi / Han / eRangers, IG-88, Vader + DbH, and so on) so who knows what the future might be showing to us soon...

Expensive =//= overcosted. The price figures that become the focal points of their lists still have to punch at their points cost to be competitive. It's also a problem when an expensive unit is split into two easier to kill figures, which makes them easier to score points on compared to single figures that can become points fortresses.

These guys are overcosted and if they end up being good, it will be because of Zillo Technique. I actually wonder if Zillo technique is the thing that is keeping the Empire from getting good units.

Overcosted? Maybe.
Sure thing is they are expensive, but if you play them in a dedicated list such as

Palpatine 8
eSentry 10
Terro 7
eJet (or eRiot) 7
Dewback 5
rOfficer 2
Zillo 1

maybe the term overcosted becomes of no importance (eJets are way better than rSentry, but eSentry are better then eJets).
Clearly it's too soon too have a clear definition, but for sure i do believe that these expensive bots will have something to say to the meta

4 hours ago, erlucius90 said:

In terms of base damage, Sentries overcome the Quays, Prowl requires an action, so the Quays ain't always shooting with the base surge, then ofc their special abilities pump them and so on (Weequays are still meta defining ofc)
Sentries move better than Quays since they don't have to lose actions to prowl, so the use you get of them is different by the turn situation (since Palpatine can make them shoot once more if they are well placed).
Then everything else depends on the list you're going to play

Their Pierce 2 also gets countered by Zillo, whereas +2 damage does not.

2 hours ago, erlucius90 said:

Overcosted? Maybe.
Sure thing is they are expensive, but if you play them in a dedicated list such as

Palpatine 8
eSentry 10
Terro 7
eJet (or eRiot) 7
Dewback 5
rOfficer 2
Zillo 1

maybe the term overcosted becomes of no importance (eJets are way better than rSentry, but eSentry are better then eJets).
Clearly it's too soon too have a clear definition, but for sure i do believe that these expensive bots will have something to say to the meta

eSentries aren't even close to the value you get from eJets. IMO any good imperial list right now has a core 15 points of 2 eJet and Zillo.

32 minutes ago, TheUnsullied said:

eSentries aren't even close to the value you get from eJets. IMO any good imperial list right now has a core 15 points of 2 eJet and Zillo.

The E Sentries are actually pretty close to the value you get from E Jets.

E Jets need to be within 2 to get their 3 die attack. Sentries always have it.
E Jets max damage is 7. E Sentries max damage is 6 with Pierce 2. However, E Sentries can attack twice per round with a maximum damage of 5 with Pierce 2.
At medium range (5-7) E Sentries are far better than E Jets, as they can still reliably hit and put out solid damage.
E Jets have mobile and the vehicle trait, however, which are better than the Guardian + Droid trait at the moment.
E Jets also have a better defense than E Sentries, although their survivability is around the same (2-3 attacks).

42 minutes ago, theaficionado said:

The E Sentries are actually pretty close to the value you get from E Jets.

E Jets need to be within 2 to get their 3 die attack. Sentries always have it.
E Jets max damage is 7. E Sentries max damage is 6 with Pierce 2. However, E Sentries can attack twice per round with a maximum damage of 5 with Pierce 2.
At medium range (5-7) E Sentries are far better than E Jets, as they can still reliably hit and put out solid damage.
E Jets have mobile and the vehicle trait, however, which are better than the Guardian + Droid trait at the moment.
E Jets also have a better defense than E Sentries, although their survivability is around the same (2-3 attacks).

And eJets are 3 points cheaper than eSentries. So basically you're saying you get the same value but save yourself 6 points if you take eJets over eSentries.

4 hours ago, Tvboy said:

Expensive =//= overcosted. The price figures that become the focal points of their lists still have to punch at their points cost to be competitive. It's also a problem when an expensive unit is split into two easier to kill figures, which makes them easier to score points on compared to single figures that can become points fortresses.

These guys are overcosted and if they end up being good, it will be because of Zillo Technique. I actually wonder if Zillo technique is the thing that is keeping the Empire from getting good units.

These guy's certainly aren't overcosted.

To be honest, their closest comparison is probably Vinto (who most people feel is INSANE for 5 points). The reason being is that each unit is 5 points and has two attacks.

So lets compare.

Hit Points: 8 each. Even, but with Zillo Technique available, the Sentries have a good chance of surviving two medium-weight attacks.

Defense: White vs Black. White probably has a VERY slight edge here (mainly because of X). It used to be that white was just better, but with the amount of three dice attacks that produce excess surges now, Evade is not as premium as it once was.

Attack Pool: Green-Blue vs Green-Green-Yellow. The winner here is definitely the Sentry Droids.

Traits: Hunter-Smuggler vs Trooper-Guardian-Droid. Hunter is the best trait in the game certainly, but Trooper is very high up there too, especially with Call the Vanguard. Still gonna give this one to Vinto.

Surges: Funnily enough, these guys have identical surges, except Vinto gets to add a status condition to each of them. It's important to note, however, that Vinto has a not unreasonable chance (33%) to not surge at all, whereas the Sentry Droids have an 8.33% chance to not roll any surges. Vintos surges ARE better, but the Sentries are more likely to be able to use them.

Abilities: Vinto's Rapid Fire is clearly better than the Sentry Droid's version (Multi-Fire?) as it can target the same unit twice and has no negative to damage. However, even with the negative to damage, the Sentry Droids are going to average a higher amount of damage than Vinto. Sentry Droids also have an in-built re-roll, and an option to have a stable mid-range accuracy. Gunslinger is a very powerful ability on Vinto's part, though. It's a tough call here; Vinto has more utility, but the Sentries are just more consistent attackers.

Speed: 4 v 5. Vinto is the clear winner here, and I'll note that 5 speed is a significantly better than 4.

5 minutes ago, TheUnsullied said:

And eJets are 3 points cheaper than eSentries. So basically you're saying you get the same value but save yourself 6 points if you take eJets over eSentries.

No, I'm not.

Let me put it this way; if they were both 8 points (I assume you're taking Targeting Computer), Sentries would outclass Jets by a mile. It wouldn't even be close.

At 10 points vs 8 (Jets + TC), I'd say it's REALLY close, and I could see lists going either way.

*EDIT* What I meant with the "same value" is more a point for point value. The amount of value you get for each of the 10 points of the Sentries is VERY close (not sure if better or worse) than the value you get per point for the 8 on the Jets.

13 hours ago, theaficionado said:

The E Sentries are actually pretty close to the value you get from E Jets.

E Jets need to be within 2 to get their 3 die attack. Sentries always have it.
E Jets max damage is 7. E Sentries max damage is 6 with Pierce 2. However, E Sentries can attack twice per round with a maximum damage of 5 with Pierce 2.
At medium range (5-7) E Sentries are far better than E Jets, as they can still reliably hit and put out solid damage.
E Jets have mobile and the vehicle trait, however, which are better than the Guardian + Droid trait at the moment.
E Jets also have a better defense than E Sentries, although their survivability is around the same (2-3 attacks).

The big difference is simple, eSentries do adapt better to ingame situations and can be strong both in close range combat and long range combat:
1) They do what eQuays do with the mercs = Sniping from an average distance of 4-6 (and they don't need to prowl in order to roll such damage, so they can actually move during each turn and the damage output is stable) while eJets high damage output comes from 2 squares of distance, otherwise they hit like non focused stormtroopers and don't benefit of the added movement points (it's very rare in this case to reach higher distances than 5 with a damage output of 1-3);
2) They can move on with the frontline (such as Vader or eRiots) and just shoot with brutality (each attack even if suffering from the -1 damage is still similar to the damage outcome from the eJets, so basically you can double your source of damage in the right setting)

12 hours ago, TheUnsullied said:

And eJets are 3 points cheaper than eSentries. So basically you're saying you get the same value but save yourself 6 points if you take eJets over eSentries.

I don't get the math, how can you save 6 points if they are 3 points cheaper? XD
You wanna get 2 of them?
Since they cost 10 i'd get no more than 1 eSentries in an army, then i can get 1 eJet aswell (that's 3 points only, 2 if you get TC on eJets).
IMO 1 eJet + 1eSentries is better than 2x eJets because of everything stated above, you have more potential to adapt to the game situation, unless you're playing a Vehicle focused army (never seen that before although xD)

Last thing i'm considering quite a bit is the point that, by having the chance of staying far from the enemies, eSentries get stronger against heavy melee units such as Luke Jedi, since they have to move further and split from the group if they want to actually stab (hitting twice with luke in this case is pretty hard the first time). Ofc Ahsoka is immune to this effect, since she flies like an airplane (This point might seem pointless atm, but with HotE melee is getting more and more important to the meta i believe, then we'll see what shall come to definition!)

3 hours ago, erlucius90 said:

The big difference is simple, eSentries do adapt better to ingame situations and can be strong both in close range combat and long range combat:
1) They do what eQuays do with the mercs = Sniping from an average distance of 4-6 (and they don't need to prowl in order to roll such damage, so they can actually move during each turn and the damage output is stable) while eJets high damage output comes from 2 squares of distance, otherwise they hit like non focused stormtroopers and don't benefit of the added movement points (it's very rare in this case to reach higher distances than 5 with a damage output of 1-3);
2) They can move on with the frontline (such as Vader or eRiots) and just shoot with brutality (each attack even if suffering from the -1 damage is still similar to the damage outcome from the eJets, so basically you can double your source of damage in the right setting)

I don't get the math, how can you save 6 points if they are 3 points cheaper? XD
You wanna get 2 of them?
Since they cost 10 i'd get no more than 1 eSentries in an army, then i can get 1 eJet aswell (that's 3 points only, 2 if you get TC on eJets).
IMO 1 eJet + 1eSentries is better than 2x eJets because of everything stated above, you have more potential to adapt to the game situation, unless you're playing a Vehicle focused army (never seen that before although xD)

Last thing i'm considering quite a bit is the point that, by having the chance of staying far from the enemies, eSentries get stronger against heavy melee units such as Luke Jedi, since they have to move further and split from the group if they want to actually stab (hitting twice with luke in this case is pretty hard the first time). Ofc Ahsoka is immune to this effect, since she flies like an airplane (This point might seem pointless atm, but with HotE melee is getting more and more important to the meta i believe, then we'll see what shall come to definition!)

They don't do what eQuays do for Mercs. One of eQuays biggest strength is the ability to straight nuke a figure off the board(white or black die) with a focused command card infused shot. Without being able to do that they would just be decent. Which is what the Sentries are.

My contention about the 6 points was that if eSentries are the strongest unit in Imperials(which I'm claiming the eJets are) you're probably going to want to include 2 of them in most lists.

Yes eSentries are going to be better at sniping than the eJets but the whole strength of the eJets is in getting up close for attacks. Even their command cards prefer you to stay near your opponents figures.

Also you are defintely overestimating the average damage of the Sentries. Here's a graph of the two units vs a white and a black die. This doesn't account for the reroll but if you're taking it on eJets(I generally don't) then that has no effect. Nevermind for some reason I only have a max .03mb file size to add so the graphs don't fit. I'd encourage you to go check them out yourself and see how close the graphs match each other. The 2 damage surge makes a world of difference.

I really like the new division of the tier list. It would be even more awesome and complete for us new-ish players if the set info was still in there for each unit.

Imo the only problem of the Sentries is, that you have to attack 2 different targets with their dual shot.

The best thing about eWeequays is that positioning is very easy. You don't have to be adjacent for rerolls like eStormtroopers or to be near to the enemy like eJets or to see 2 targets like the Sentries. EWeequays just move out of cover, shoot long range, move back into cover. That doesn't require a lot of skill. The aforementioned Troopers do require a lot of skill to perform well. But in the hands of a skillful player, the Sentries deal more damage per point, when using their dual shot.

Third page? WTF, this needs to go back to the first, absolutely amazing work

Just to throw this in, I'm not convinced the eSentries are worth th 10pts, but i have found them very effective for the imperial team.

Thr multifire which i thought was hopeless, is actually really good at cleaning up figures that have been wounded previously. 2 eSentries are pretty reliable at taking 2 full health figures like equay and rangers taking shots and then doing it again. Hunter is the best attribute in the game and ive always said the weequay should have been trooper and smuggler Not HUNTER. the eSentries will probably age better in the game though. Hunters will probably never get another command card, but troopers and droids and guardians will all continue to get upgrades

i don't think the eSentries are overcosted, but for 10 points they should have had 9 hp each or an auto block

I played E-Sentries on the weekend at Australian nats, and they were golden. I thought they were an amazing part of the team!

I feel as though they're at exactly the right place they need to be cost-wise. I'd also agree with @buckero0 that Guardian, Trooper and Droid feel as though they're much more likely to get support cards, meaning better scaling in the future.

Two of them with Multi-fire will often just destroy an activation from an opponent. They eat Rangers and Pirates for breakfast, and they're tough enough to survive even the best attack from either of them. Three rangers can't take out two droids, but two droids can definitely take out two rangers, for comparison.

I will defend these guys to the grave.

If they just weren't so ugly...

I agree. They are sturdy as h@ll and are good at pretty much all ranges. They are eEcho Base troopers on Glitterstim basically. I wrote them off for not having a +2 damage surge, but I was really wrong doing so.