In case we haven't exhausted ourselves enough on Kari's melee surge ability:

Heartseeker says Kari ignores Line of Sight when performing a Ranged Attack. Does that include the Firing Arc requirement?

references:

46 Line of Sight: "• Both points that the line is traced between must be inside the firing arc of the unit that is either performing the attack or resolving the effect"

39.3 Firing Arc : "When a unit is determining line of sight, both points by which line of sight is determined must be within that unit’s firing arc."

65 Ranged Attack: "Ranged attack is an action. To perform a ranged attack (?) action, a unit attacks an enemy unit that is inside the attacker’s firing arc, at range 1–5, and in the attacker’s line of sight."

46 and 39.3 would seem to be ignored by Heartseeker, as they are parts of determining Line of Sight. However, 65 brings it back and says she needs firing arc before she even thinks about Line of Sight.

I'm inclined to think she needs arc RAW, but maybe was intended to not need arc. How has everyone else been playing it?

I, too, read it as requiring the target to be within her arc, but she can ignore obstacles.

I think 65 makes it clear that Kari would need to be firing in arc even if she had Heartseeker.

65 is establishing 3 conditions for making a ranged attack:

1. Target is within the firing arc.
2. Target is range 1-5.
3. Target is in LoS.

46 explains how to determine LoS. 39 explains firing arc with 39.3 giving a clarification of how firing arcs interact with determining LoS.

My mate and I interpreted it to mean it ignores 46, and can shoot out of arc. Otherwise, why the heck would it cost ten points.

1 hour ago, Hos said:

My mate and I interpreted it to mean it ignores 46, and can shoot out of arc. Otherwise, why the heck would it cost ten points.

Because ignoring obstacles on line of fire is extremely powerful?

2 hours ago, Hos said:

My mate and I interpreted it to mean it ignores 46, and can shoot out of arc. Otherwise, why the heck would it cost ten points.

It lets you throw your ranged unit behind a screen making it so only other units with an ability like Heartseeker can attack back. The undead hero that can restore trays to units and then spend surges from his ranged attacks heal himself will love parking himself behind a replenishing wall.

On 4/26/2017 at 3:25 PM, WWHSD said:

I think 65 makes it clear that Kari would need to be firing in arc even if she had Heartseeker.

65 is establishing 3 conditions for making a ranged attack:

1. Target is within the firing arc.
2. Target is range 1-5.
3. Target is in LoS.

46 explains how to determine LoS. 39 explains firing arc with 39.3 giving a clarification of how firing arcs interact with determining LoS.

100% agreed. She normally needs to fulfill three requirements, as above. Heartseeker only removes requirement #3. Her target stills needs to be within the firing arc AND within range 1-5.

1 hour ago, WWHSD said:

It lets you throw your ranged unit behind a screen making it so only other units with an ability like Heartseeker can attack back. The undead hero that can restore trays to units and then spend surges from his ranged attacks heal himself will love parking himself behind a replenishing wall.

Having been harried by Kari with Heartseeker behind a piece of terrain I couldn't enter... it's worth every single point.

It is worth mentioning that Kari can only attack things in arc, but her surge ability is not an attack. Heartseeker doesn't interact with her surge ability at all, though it isn't needed anyway as the ability doesn't call for line of sight.

56 minutes ago, rowdyoctopus said:

It is worth mentioning that Kari can only attack things in arc, but her surge ability is not an attack. Heartseeker doesn't interact with her surge ability at all, though it isn't needed anyway as the ability doesn't call for line of sight.

Her surge ability only works for melee attacks.

Heartseeker only affects ranged attacks.

On 4/28/2017 at 9:05 AM, Hos said:

My mate and I interpreted it to mean it ignores 46, and can shoot out of arc. Otherwise, why the heck would it cost ten points.

Because its insanely powerful.
LOS in this game isnt like most miniature games, its a flat "yes/no" value, not "how much is covered?" or "what part of the model can i see? Does that part count?"

Kari can take this upgrade and sit behind the Forest or some other large, LoS blocking terrain and toss arrows at people w/o ANY fear of being shot back. Shes not getting a "cover bonus" for doing this, shes flatout immune to a rebuttal attack. Thats why its 10pts.

Back on topic:
I agree that it only ignores 46 in the rules. In arc and line of sight are two separate things.

Actually firing arc is in line of sight, as the second rule under the heading. If Line of sight is ignored so are all it's component rules, including firing arc. At least that s my interpretation.

26 minutes ago, Taki said:

Actually firing arc is in line of sight, as the second rule under the heading. If Line of sight is ignored so are all it's component rules, including firing arc. At least that s my interpretation.

Your interpretation isn't supported by the rules. Line of Sight is measured from within a model's Firing Arc and that's where the relationship ends. Section 65 clearly lists three requirements that a unit needs to meet to be a valid target for a ranged attack. Line of Sight and Firing Arc are listed separately. If your interpretation was correct there would be no need include "inside the attacker’s firing arc" as a requirement since it would be encompassed by "in the attacker’s line of sight". Heartseeker allows you to ignore one of the requirements but the target must still meet the other two conditions.

RRG, pg. 15
"Ranged attack is an action. To perform a ranged attack action,
a unit attacks an enemy unit that is inside the attacker’s firing arc,
at range 1–5, and in the attacker’s line of sight."

2 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

Your interpretation isn't supported by the rules. Line of Sight is measured from within a model's Firing Arc and that's where the relationship ends. Section 65 clearly lists three requirements that a unit needs to meet to be a valid target for a ranged attack. Line of Sight and Firing Arc are listed separately. If your interpretation was correct there would be no need include "inside the attacker’s firing arc" as a requirement since it would be encompassed by "in the attacker’s line of sight". Heartseeker allows you to ignore one of the requirements but the target must still meet the other two conditions.

RRG, pg. 15
"Ranged attack is an action. To perform a ranged attack action,
a unit attacks an enemy unit that is inside the attacker’s firing arc,
at range 1–5, and in the attacker’s line of sight."

Line of Sight, entry 46 specifically addresses firing arc in 46.1 first bulletin. Therefor if something ignores the Line of sight rule, it ignores firing arc as well, as it is specifically under that rule. Though like many rules questions I have about this game, I'm disappointed we don't have a FAQ yet.

13 minutes ago, Taki said:

Line of Sight, entry 46 specifically addresses firing arc in 46.1 first bulletin. Therefor if something ignores the Line of sight rule, it ignores firing arc as well, as it is specifically under that rule. Though like many rules questions I have about this game, I'm disappointed we don't have a FAQ yet.

Were this the case the ranged attack rules wouldn't need to specify that the attack has to be inside the firing arc, simply stating that it needs to be in the LoS would do. It's also possible for something to be inside a unit's firing arc, but not in the unit's LoS, which contradicts the idea that ignoring LoS also ignores Arc.

1 hour ago, GoblinGuide said:

Were this the case the ranged attack rules wouldn't need to specify that the attack has to be inside the firing arc, simply stating that it needs to be in the LoS would do. It's also possible for something to be inside a unit's firing arc, but not in the unit's LoS, which contradicts the idea that ignoring LoS also ignores Arc.

That was my argument on hopping over terrain, yet here we are. The rules need clarifications at points

2 hours ago, Taki said:

Line of Sight, entry 46 specifically addresses firing arc in 46.1 first bulletin. Therefor if something ignores the Line of sight rule, it ignores firing arc as well, as it is specifically under that rule. Though like many rules questions I have about this game, I'm disappointed we don't have a FAQ yet.

That section doesn't say what you seem to think that it does. The section on Line of Sight explains that Line of Sight is required for ranged attacks and other ranged effects. It doesn't list either range or firing arc as a requirement because it isn't listing all of the conditions a target must meet to be targeted by a ranged attack or effect. This section just describes Line of Sight.

46.1 explains how to determine Line of Sight. There is nothing in that section that even hints that if an effect allows Line of Sight to be ignored that you can also ignore Firing Arc.

Section 39 explains what a Firing Arc is. The first two subsections give some clarifications on what is considered inside the arc. 39.3 explains that when measuring Line of Sight that both the point on the attacker and defender that are being checked need to be inside the firing arc. Again, there is nothing that suggests that being able to ignore Line of Sight would also allow you to ignore Firing Arc.

RRG, pg 11:
"39 Firing Arc
Each tray has four firing-arc lines used to measure a unit’s firing
arc. A unit’s firing arc is the area formed by extending the firingarc
lines from the two firing-arc lines on the front corners of a
unit’s front rank. A firing arc extends across the entirety of the
play area.
39.1 If any part of a unit’s tray is inside a firing arc, the entire unit
is treated as being inside that firing arc.
39.2 The lines that compose the boundaries of a firing arc are
treated as being inside that firing arc.
39.3 When a unit is determining line of sight, both points by
which line of sight is determined must be within that unit’s
firing arc.
Related Topics: Line of Sight, Ranks, Unit"

RRG, pg. 13:
"46 Line of Sight
To perform a ranged attack or resolve other ranged effects, a
unit must have line of sight to its target.
46.1 To determine if a unit has line of sight to a target unit, a
player uses the range ruler to trace a line from any point
along his unit’s front edge to any point on the target unit. If
the line is traced through a piece of terrain or another unit,
either friendly or enemy, the unit that is either performing the
attack or resolving the effect does not have line of sight to
the target unit.
• Both points that the line is traced between must be inside
the firing arc of the unit that is either performing the attack
or resolving the effect.
• When tracing line of sight, players use a single edge of the
range ruler; the width of the ruler is irrelevant.
• Line of sight is always traced from a tray of one unit to a tray
of another unit; figures are not used to determine line of sight.
• The connectors on each tray are viable points for
determining line of sight.
Related Topics: Firing Arc, Obstacles, Range, Terrain"

2 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

Both points that the line is traced between must be inside
the firing arc of the unit that is either performing the attack
or resolving the effect.

That's under line of sight. Heart seeker allows me to ignore line of sight rules. I can therefore ignore this restriction. You quoted verbatim, and it's in there.

Just now, Taki said:

That's under line of sight. Heart seeker allows me to ignore line of sight rules. I can therefore ignore this restriction. You quoted verbatim, and it's in there.

Heartseeker allows you to ignore Line of Sight. It doesn't allow you to ignore anything else. I don't know where you are getting that idea from. There's nothing in the block of text that I quoted that even remotely suggests that ignoring Line of Sight allows you to ignore the Firing Arc.

The section on Line of Sight explains how to measure Line of Sight, which requires a measurement to be made inside of the Firing Arc. That's it. That's the only relationship between Firing Arc and Line of Sight.

3 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

Heartseeker allows you to ignore Line of Sight. It doesn't allow you to ignore anything else. I don't know where you are getting that idea from. There's nothing in the block of text that I quoted that even remotely suggests that ignoring Line of Sight allows you to ignore the Firing Arc.

The section on Line of Sight explains how to measure Line of Sight, which requires a measurement to be made inside of the Firing Arc. That's it. That's the only relationship between Firing Arc and Line of Sight.

No, you're reading the rules far too narrowly. If firing arc wasn't supposed to be a line of sight issue, it would not be in that section. If a power allows you to ignore restrictions for a rule, you ignore them. Anyway, I have already sent an email. I ll post their reply when I get it, until then it serves no purpose going back and forth with this.

Just now, Taki said:

No, you're reading the rules far too narrowly. If firing arc wasn't supposed to be a line of sight issue, it would not be in that section. If a power allows you to ignore restrictions for a rule, you ignore them. Anyway, I have already sent an email. I ll post their reply when I get it, until then it serves no purpose going back and forth with this.

FFS man, it's a rules reference. Learn to use it. There's all sorts of stuff mentioned in all sorts of sections because the rules build on each other.

The rules clearly lay out the requirements for making a ranged attack in section 65 (Ranged Attacks). Each of the three requirements have their own sections. Section 39 explains what a Firing Arc is and gives some specifics on using them. Section 46 explains what Line of Sight is and how to check it. Section 64 explains what Range is and how to measure. All that Heartseeker does is takes the list of requirements for making a ranged attack and crosses one of the items on the list. You still need to fulfill the other requirements.


Can you ignore the range ruler? It's mentioned in the LoS section.
Can you ignore trays? They are mentioned in the LoS section.
Can you ignore units? They are mentioned in the LoS section.

5 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

FFS man, it's a rules reference. Learn to use it. There's all sorts of stuff mentioned in all sorts of sections because the rules build on each other.

The rules clearly lay out the requirements for making a ranged attack in section 65 (Ranged Attacks). Each of the three requirements have their own sections. Section 39 explains what a Firing Arc is and gives some specifics on using them. Section 46 explains what Line of Sight is and how to check it. Section 64 explains what Range is and how to measure. All that Heartseeker does is takes the list of requirements for making a ranged attack and crosses one of the items on the list. You still need to fulfill the other requirements.


Can you ignore the range ruler? It's mentioned in the LoS section.
Can you ignore trays? They are mentioned in the LoS section.
Can you ignore units? They are mentioned in the LoS section.

You're being a horse's ass. I've asked you twice now not to argue and to be more polite. Grow up.

Range isn't mentioned in the LOS section

The trays and units statement was pedantic garbage as they aren't mentioned in a meaningful way in the section.

I'm willing to accept taht the heartseeker is overcosted and still requires the firing arc, I'm willing to believe it's not overcosted and you simply have a narrow view of the rules that it does ignore targeting restriction, and I can accept that it's a poorly worded item if it does. And it may wound your ego, that your words haven't convinced me, and that your logic isn't just accepted on it's face statement, but I have gone to a higher authority on the game than you. I'll let you know what they say, and unlike you, if I'm right I won't be a **** about it.

19 minutes ago, Taki said:

I'm willing to accept taht the heartseeker is overcosted and still requires the firing arc, I'm willing to believe it's not overcosted and you simply have a narrow view of the rules that it does ignore targeting restriction, and I can accept that it's a poorly worded item if it does. .

There's the third case: Heartseeker is costed appropriately for an ability that lets you park a ranged unit behind a piece of terrain or another unit and attack in complete safety (unless your opponent also spent 10 points on Heartseeker).

If my opponent put a 41 point Kari behind an obstacle and shot all day , I think I'd be okay with that - she's not in melee annihilating my units with surges.

Just because you ignore one bit of a larger paragraph doesnt mean you ignore the entire thing.
Firing arc is called out separate from Line of Sight several times. You dont magically ignore it just because its mentioned in the bit about Line of Sight, which you do ignore.