Hello

My concern is when do I ask PCs to do skill checks or do they tell me when they want to use there skills ( IE observation checks) .

for example , say there is a secret bookshelf in a room , The pcs would only roll for observation if they specifically told me they wanted to do an observation check on the bookshelf , rather me than me saying "there is a observation check on the bookshelf " ?

in another example I would tell one of the pc(s) to make an observation check to see if they noticed the man leering at them from the 2nd story wondow.is this correct ?

Also something I ran into was the pcs asking me if there was an observation check on just about everything : /

Lastly an example from "an eye for an eye " where the pcs met Dr.Sieger for the first time the book says than anyone passing a observation check will be able to detect the odor of strong vegitation coming from him. So do I tell the pcs to roll for observation or do I make them ask me to use there observation skill on the npc , if that is the case wouldnt they then want to make a observation check on all npcs they meet ?

Thank you for reading and anything you can clear up would be a big help thank you.

I'd say a bit of both. If they say they are searching, looking, watching out for things, I usually make them make an Observation test anyway even if there's nothing significant to see. This keeps them on edge and gets them behaving appropriately, especially in dangerous areas. If there is something to see (like the guy at the window or the bookshelf) I ask them to make the test when there's a chance to see the important detail (searching the bookshelf, passing by the window). If they fail, they often know they've missed something but it doesn't matter if they go back to look, they won't find it. In some cases, some pass, some fail. Then we're in to notes and fingers in the ears situations, where one player finds something and it's up to them to share - that creates tension nicely.

When you ask the player's to do an observation skill for, lets say the man in the window, don't tell why they are making the check, just that they all (or some if appropriate) need make an observation check and if they pass they will learn why they had to. with regards to secret doors I'd usually only let player's find anything if they specifically say they are searching for secret doors or hidden stuff in that general area (in the room) unless someone has reason to be able to spot secret doors merely by passing by them.

I normally split the finding of "hidden things" into three categories...

1. The PCs have a chance of spotting the hidden thing simply by entering the general area. In this case i call for an observation check (but not telling them why they are making it..) once they are in a position where they might spot it. Example: the PCs walk down the street, will they spot the figure watching them from the first floor window? GM: "Can you make an observation check please"...

Optionally, if the PCS fail the check but subsequently state they are looking in the specific direction, I may let them see the hidden thing without needing a roll. Example: Everyone fails the check, but while the PCs head down the street one of them says they are trying to watch out and seeing if they are being watched from any of the windows or alleys.. GM: "As you look up to the first floor of the building across the street, for a moment you catch a glimpse of someone looking down on you, before they disappear behind the curtain".

If I do this, I tend to make the explanation less detailed than if they had they passed the observation check (i.e. if they had passed the inital observation check, they may have noticed the person in the window was certainly a male and dressed in a fine dinner jacket).

I certainly don't do this ALL the time and never tell the PCs when it is an option, otherwise the PCs will be inclined to start to look all around until they work out what the observation check was for in the first place; this is a bit of meta gaming on their part, and it doesn't happen often, but its best to keep it to a minimum.

If I go with the option that they can't find the hidden thing, then i normally make it quite clear the PCs have no chance of now spotting what the observation test was for. Example PC: "I look down the alleys and at the windows, is anyone watching us?" GM: " You have a good look around and everything seems absolutely normal. If anyone had been watching you, you can certainly see no sign of them now"... (having this slight hint that the PCs may have missed their opportunity is always good for a bit of party tension!)

2. Something is sufficiently hidden, so the PC have no chance to spot it without a search BUT with a search, they immedaitely find it. Example: A heretical book on a book shelf. If a PC states I look at the books on the shelf, or I search the books, or some such. I would reveal that one of the books is clearly of a heretical nature without any roll needed.

3. Something is sufficiently hidden so that the PC have no chance to spot it without a search and even then only if the pass an observation check. Example: The book shelf also has a small button underneath one of the shelves that when pressed, opens the secret door behind the bookshelf.

Only if the PC say that they are looking at the bookshelf do they then get to make an observation check and only if they pass it do they find the button. Its possible to combine options 2 and 3, and give the results after the observation check..

Example: PC 1 and 2 decide to search the book shelf GM: "make an observation check please" PC 1 fails but PC 2 succeeds. GM : "OK, PC 1, you check the titles of the various books and come across one that you clearly recognise as heretical. PC 2 while checking the books, you run your finger along the bottom of the middle shelf and in the far right corner and you come across what feels like a small bump or knob.

hope this helps

I follow something similar to what pumpkin already stated.

If a player states he's actively searching, looking for something or scrutinizing a particular area they'll get an observation check at their request. They'll get boons from relevant skills and expertise dice. This will take some time to complete and distract them from other endeavours. Observation checks aren't free.

If a player doesn't state he's actively searching, but is looking for something in particular or might plausibly notice something is different then I'll ask for an automatic observation check. But only if they have a relevant specialty or skill that would have given them a boon had they been searching actively. They also get an automatic check if the hidden item is relevant to their character's story (missing heirloom, valued treasure, etc.). I do not add any fortune dice for automatic rolls, only expertice dice. They're fortunate they get to roll automatically. Automatic rolls do not take time away from the PC's, it's an intuitive / subconcious thing, hence the lack of fortune dice.

I'll sometimes ask for automatic checks in areas that contain no hidden items and inject some red herrings instead. Especially if it fits the story.

More often than not, Observation checks (and other information revealing checks) are rolled behind the DM screen by the players (or by the DM if they don't mind me tainting their roll with my grubby hands!). But only the DM reads the final results, my players like being surprised both OOC and IC. So they appreciate never truly knowing if they failed or succeeded. Depending on the nature of the roll I'll let another player see the result so they can also share in the fun, and to keep the players trust that I'm not fudging rolls.

I will let them get an idea of how certain they feel about the outcome. Which can either mean a strong success (found something) or a catastrophic failure (deluded into thinking they found something).

Here's how I do it. If they enter a room where they may notice something I ask them to make ONE observatio check. The player with the highest pool can roll and the others can assist if it makes sense.

I just ask them to make an observation roll... no information about why unless they get a success. This kind of observation rolls are always harder than if they start looking for something on their own. After the observation roll they will have a hunch that there is something in the room, but now they have to be more specific about what/where they are looking (for). The difficulty of this next observation roll depends on how close their search description is to whatever it is they could find. They can continue looking if they look in new places of course, but sometimes they may simply state they they "lift the rug", so no roll is needed.

It's all about the description. As a GM it's very important to set the scene, without using too long time on all kinds of irrelevant details. Set the scene and mood of the place and perhaps in that description give subtle clue to things that could be interresting for them to examine.

But my players never take advantage of sudden observation rolls. They can't just state that they "look again"... they have to be more specific about where they are looking and in some cases even describe what they are looking for.

one thing i would try to avoid when dealing with hidden things is when they players are looking for something key to the story. yes, it might be hidden, and yes, they should have to make a check to find it, but if your story depends on them finding this thing, just give it to them. you can narrate "after carefully combing the room, you find such and such stuffed behind the bookshelf."

this keeps you out of the awkward "well i really expected them to have X" moments.

To expand on what evilben said, you can have a skill check and have them automatically find the item whether they succeed or fail the skill check.

So why have the skill check you ask? Because say the PC fails the roll. They still find the item, but there's a catch. Say one of the guards in the manor sees them taking something from the bookshelf. Or say they grab the evil cultist book from the shelf and it burns the hand of any non-believers (inflicting a wound) - something to cause complications.

Whether you succeed or fail on a roll, the story should always move forward in an interesting direction.

evilben said:

Yes that's essential. But I still like making them roll for the important stuff, because it makes their character abilities seem important. IF they should miss a vital clue I just rearrange the scenario and slip in another clue, that gives them an idea where to look. For such vital stuff, that they may miss, I have always prepared handouts, that I may or may not use, depending on how things unfold. When I have made a scenario I think perhaps I only use half of it in the actual session... what depends on the players. Some of the stuff that they missed can be used later. I like open scenarios with a strong story that the players oncover in different ways and have a high degree of influence over. That's why their success will never depend on a single clue, so that missed roll doesn't stall the session.

I see my scenarios as consisting of brush strokes that slowly reveal the true picture, some strokes the players make, some I have prepared, some are wide strokes and some are subtle details. I always have a very clear picture of the story, with enough brush strokes to paint several full pictures, because this gives me the power to improvise and go with the flow of the session.