EQUIPMENT (house rule)
ITEM Scarcity Cost
Riding horse common 1g
Nag plentiful 50s
Warhorse rare 5g
Mule plentiful 20s

Anyone care to do wagons carts & carriages?

jh

I have always thought that 1 gold was too expensive for a riding horse. If you look at the income chart in the core rulebook (pg 72) then you will notice that a peasant only makes 1g and 25 s in a year. So would this mean that a horse would cost a years worth of work for your average Joe peasant farmer to buy? Farmers would have to eat too you know.

I would think 9 or 10 silver would make a horse a big investment without making it unaffordable for most people in the empire.

Looking at europe during the dark ages or early renaissance and a village might have had 1 or 2 horses, a years investment for a farmer to buy a horse seems about right to me, poor dirt pushers don't have much, the death of a large farm animal would devastate the family, might even lead to why little Thomas went adventuring.

UncleArkie said:

Sorry to be inconvenient, but as a european, I've got to correct that : "dark ages" didn't exist in Europe, it's Middle-Age. An era starting from the fall of the western roman empire around 500AD to the end of the hundred year war between french and english at the end of XVth century. Then starts Renaissance.

As I studied it quite a lot, let me ask you to remember that Middle-Age was not a dark period. A LOT of technology where lost In Renaissance and after that : building Cathedral, making "vitraux" (I don't know how to tell it in english... these uber colored windows you know), simply making crete... An interesting thing also comparing to Warhammer's Old world is people didn't burn witches during middle Ages. They were burnt during XVI and XVII centuries, mostly in actual germany and switzerland.

For french speaking people I deeply recommand to read some easy and short reading as "Sacré Moyen-Âge" by Martin Blais. It gives you tons of nice informations like these to illustrate your medieval RPG world.

Concerning horses... the fact is their price was REALLY not the same for 2 horses.

- A labour horse could cost the same price than a ox... or it could cost A LOT.

- In Legrand D'Aussy's archive, we can see a king horse cost approximatively 40 ordinary pounds around 5000 US dollars XVth century. Its price is deeply influenced by the social origin of the buyer.

- Guillaume Bataille, council of the regent, paid 250 ordinary pounds for a High noble horse around 15000 US dollars !! in 1420, during the Hundred years wars (my kingdom for a horse, uh?).

- In other archives, we learn that Goisfroy son of Beaufroy Montfort inheritated some lands and an ordinary horse which costed 60 sols. 1 tournament pound (a silverish coin) = 20 sols. It may help for warhammer... the value of a tournament pound fluctuated through centuries of middle-age from 20 to 70 US dollars.

All we have to do is compare these values to warhammmer equipment's prices now.

And the crusader burning of the library of Alexandria did not herald a dark age? The christian church smothering all freethinking, most monarchs being reduced to proxies of the holy seat?

And yes I have read Blaise and yes I too am european, you also forget the impact of the battle of hastings, so on and so on.

And we are not talking about the horses of monarchs, we are talking about what little poor farmers, starting adventurers and lowly highwaymen can afford, old nags, draft horses and maybe the occasional pony for the dwarf. Not the steed of a mighty knight who has the income of 15 or 20 villages and a few towns to support his addiction to jousting.

Right now I'm thinking that a mule, donkey, old ox or pack horse would cost 50s to 75s. A plough horse or ox would cost about 1gc. A good riding horse could cost 5g to 10g. A good warhorse could cost 10g to 20g.

In the USA at least, we consider the Dark Ages to be the rather brutal times of about 400 AD through 1300 AD, give or take. The Old World of Warhammer seems to have been in a very long medieval state, so it's tough to compare Warhammer to our own history. Some parts of the Empire are still lingering in Dark Ages tech levels, while others are more advanced and look a lot like the early Renaissance. Because the Old World has been in this state for so long, we can justify nearly any sort of equipment prices we want. (Firearms are an especially unusual case, since they are sometimes shown as being relatively common in the Empire, and other times they seem to be very scarce.)

Generally speaking, I think horses were fairly valuable. A riding horse could be something of a luxury, like owning a car in London is today. It's true that draft horses (working horses) cost about as much as a cow or an ox, and they were expected to work hard for several years. An ordinary farmer wouldn't have much use for a riding horse and probably couldn't afford one anyway.

Dark ages My people consider that to be when the white man came and took their land, drove their food supply to extinction, pushed them on reservations and gave them moldy, rotton, maggot ridden food and then murdered us when we asked for 'the other white meat.' Dark ages..heh. All you guys had was 1/3rd of your population wiped out. Stop yer cryin'.

Is that too serious? The other half of my people (the Hafner's) made pots in Germany and later came over as mercenaries to fight the Colonists

I use all that stuff in my games.

jh

one bazillionth Sioux, but mostly white meat

Hi using my own multiplier formula (which can be found over at hammerzeit), I came up with these prices: (although the system is slightly flawed).

Mount Old price New price
Bretonnian Warhorse 750 gc 2 g 15s
Destrier 500 gc 1 g 40s
Light Warhorse 300 gc 85s
Pony 50 gc 15 s
Riding horse 80 g 25s
Cart 50gc 15 s
Coach 500gc 1g 40s
Wagon 90gc 26 s

Good Gaming

In V1 and V2, a wagon typically cost about 8 to 10 times as much as a hand weapon. So in V3, a wagon should cost about 2g 50s. (Anything between 2g and 3g would be reasonable).

Based on that, I would recalculate the prices to come up with these guidelines:

Superior Warhorse 19g
Destrier 12g
Light Warhorse 7g 50s
Pony 1g 25s
Riding Horse 2g 50s
Cart 1g 25s
Coach 12g
Wagon 2g 50s

Emirikol said:

Good way of putting things into perspective, then again white meats speciality has always seemed to be genocide. Be it their own kind or others... How did this end up in a debate about the cost of equine means of transportation? You just have to love forums.

I was just saying Middle-Age was the appropriate term for that period where it wasn't all bad. "dark" is more a jugment ... Then it started.

About horses, I thank you for your prices suggestions. I wanted to add some immersive element about the price fluctuation about important stuff like horses. Yes, there's no walmart there and no constant price... we all know that. Moreover we may think these prices could be absolutely illogical sometimes.

I didn't intend to shock someone's convictions here. Sorry if I did.

For horses (and pack animals) I really liked Boris' take in this thread:

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=166&efcid=3&efidt=242623

Yes, he did a comprehensive job on the subject. I think I'm going to settle on something simple:

ITEM Scarcity Cost
Warhorse Rare 8g
Riding horse common 1g
Pony common 70s
Ox common 50s
Mule plentiful 20s
Cart common 1g
Coach rare 10g
Wagon common 3g

Since we have poor, average and superior quality items, that would also apply here.

jh

I think that direct comparisons between 2nd and 3rd edition don't work here. You only need to look at the differences between plate, chainmail, and leather between the two editions, which make it very difficult. A destrier should be 20GC like plate armour, a light warhorse or courser should be 5GC, a draft horse, or riding horse 1GC, an ox 75shillings, and a cow 25 shillings. A Brettonian warhorse in the Empire should count as superior (200GC), but the same as a destrier in Brettonia. Likewise a normal destrier would likely be treated as poor quality in Brettonia (10GC). The problem should not be money, if an Imperial noble wants to buy a Brettonian warhorse in Brettonia, but whether he can persuade anybody to sell him one. The whole purchase should probably be a long adventure in its own right, with loads of social pitfalls. You could always pay the going price in the Empire (200GC), but you would have to find one, and it would likely be an exotic item.

A horse, a horse - my kingdom for a horse.

Playing with quite an experienced and enthusiastic group we quickly ran in to the horse issue, and a lot of other equipment issues. Our brilliant GM had at that time by empiric means established that the prices in the 3ed and 2ed is correlated as follows:

All 2ed prices broken down in to brass and multiplied by 0.37.

Meaning a riding horse comes in at 2gc and 85s

Regards