I am a new GM with new players who bought this game because it looked very cool. It is indeed very cool and we have been enjoying it. Once again, hats off to FFG. My players are heavy MMO and video game RPG players. This is fine, but it has turned them into scavenging cleptos which makes it difficult for this newb GM sometimes. They cannot get past their desire to farm items and stay in the story.

*Spoiler*

In the Eye for an Eye scenario they were searching everything in the manor house, including looking for Ashaffenburg's money stash after he was drugged and stealing the beer out of the wine cellar for their packs. They didn't level their skullduggery or anything, but I think they are just following their natural video game RPG tendencies to farm things or gather crafting items. Fortunately for them, the tendencies paid off in the end because they had the books and the painting and weren't giving them up to anyone. Act III turned out to be a huge battle of the Chaos group trying to recover the items through brute force and for good measure I threw in the beastman attack in the middle of it all. It was a bloody ending.

*End Spoiler*

Anyway, finally to my question: What is everyone doing for corpse looting? I understand the concept that you can change parentheses values if you customize the equipment for the NPC or enemy, but what if you use the default values/typical trappings found in the book? They ALWAYS check the corpses and expect to find equipment, items, or money. Even if they don't need items they will take it to sell. This is fine when I have custom equipment on NPC's, but can't figure out what to do with default stuff. Do I just tell them things like crude beastman weapons or cobbled together orc armor have no market value? Knowing them, they would still take it...

Any suggestions would be good as well as how to curb my players desire to constantly be gathering items.

Also, one last thing. How much should I charge if my player wants to buy a horse? Do they need to pay to stable it (including food and supplies for it) or is that too detailed? They wanted to ask about buying griffons, but I told them that was too far out of their influence in the realm of the Empire for now...

I can see this looting carries over from games such as Diablo, Wow etc which have no medium for a proper RPG experience but have to rely on simple materialistic greed.

First, make loot less appealing: worn stuff with little resell value. Also, make looting less socially accepted in the game world: merchants willing to buy looted stuff should be more difficult to find and due to lower demand, prices are not good. I usually give 1/3 or maximum or 1/2 of the item price.

Also, make it a burden for the group to haul all that loot: create situations where they need to be fast and agile and the loot is only slowing them down. Nothing works better than climing over a 3m wall in a hurry being chased by guards.

But be diplomatic: don't stress these rules too harshly on the players but slightly mold their behavior. Also, make everything else more interesting: RPGs are not just killing enemies and selling their stuff to buy better stuff.

Also - if they want to loot - let em! Make sure you mark that 4 Encumbrance for the 'scraps of armor' and the 2 for the 'Beastmen weapon' and the 4 for the Misc, keep going in this vein and eventually they will all be encumbered and finding it difficult to move and fight well at all!

Looting is a hallmark of D&D which went into MMOs and then back into RPGs.

You really shouldn't have to make a big case out of it. The encumberance rules in this game are brutal so just make sure NPCs don't carry lots of cash. If the party wants to haul loot back to altdork to sell it, make the encumberance rules work for you and hit them with some wondering beasties.

1. Make it so they can only sell weapons an armor in big cities.

2. Hit them with wondering monsters while encumbered.

3. Use the haggling rules and screw them for sale price ("This is in teribble shape" , etc...)

They should get the hint.

Great suggestions! Thank you. I will be sure to ambush their scavenging clepto heroes with a beastman war party at a most inconvienent time.

Now can anyone help me with the horse issue...

Ask each of your players which fictional and irl characters they feel are most like their PCs. Then ask them if they think these characters would loot. If the answer is 'yes,' then they're doing it right. If the answer is 'no,' then raise your eyebrow, knowingly.

I did ask them if their characters were the looting type...they said probably not but did it anyway. You have to understand being a newb GM with these guys is brutal as I have not ever played a tapletop RPG either. They are very much "wild card" type players so I am improv-ing constantly while trying to manage NPC's, beastmen henchmen, etc. The wood elf ALWAYS climbs in a tree the first hint of combat (he will even run to the nearest one if it is long range). Although I do give him a fortune die for his ranged attacks. Anyway about the horses they want...how much do I charge?

Antonious said:

Mine does that too.

Antonious said:

Hi try this link to hammerzeit: The best Warhammer site -unoffical that is. My kingdom for a horse

Anyway your story did crack me up. Sooo funny that I laughed me silly , so thanks for cheering me up. I Hope this will be of any help.

Heh. This and replacement character rules. Two things you NEED in your house rulebook. I've been gaming for over 30 years and I've perfected ours:

Looting the Corpses:

Unless otherwise stated by the GM, all items recovered have suffered sufficient damage or were already bad enough quality as to be unsaleable. They may be used by PC's however, but they are considered in "POOR" condition.

jh

.

Antonious said:

See my post "House Rulebook So Far"

jh

monkeylite said:

Don't they all?

Corpse looting is expected, and if your PC party is tearing across the countryside slaying monsters all the time, it's perfectly appropriate for them to start piling up their treasures. Weapons and armor can be scavenged, but I'd remind PCs these are probably streaked with fresh blood and innards, and will attract flies unless they clean them off. Either way, this gives you some storytelling hooks to work with. Cleaning the weapons will take time, and that might be enough time for enemy reinforcements. Flies will be noisy and annoying, and they should be worth a misfortune die when trying to being sneaky, or in the middle of combat as they buzz around your face, or when trying to sell them.

The weapons used by nasty monsters are probably going to be crude and distasteful, and not of much value to anyone, except maybe as a novelty. The average Imperial citizen probably won't want to have anything to do with a beastman's "accursed" weapon.

Most monsters aren't going to carry any money at all. Just assume they don't. The only characters that have use for money are those that are part of a society that recognizes the value of those coins. A beastman doesn't trade in coin; he earns his place in society by being strong and fearless, and takes his weapons from lesser beastmen.

If your players are thinking about each battle as an opportunity to farm supplies and you're not happy with that, you might want to give them tougher enemies and make the battles more important.

Introduce some running battles. Create situations where the PCs have the race the clock. Maybe they need to cross a river ford to get out of the forest, but it's been raining all morning and the river's starting to flood. If they don't get to the river ford in the next few minutes, the water will be too deep and they might be trapped in a beastman-infested forest for hours, or until the storm passes. That's when you put beastmen in their path. Have the PCs fight for their lives, instead of fighting for loot. This might sound like a mean thing to do, but I guarantee that a really challenging battle is going to be a memorable one. And maybe they don't win! Maybe they get captured and dragged back to the beastmen's camp, and have to figure out a way to rescue themselves before they're sacrificed to Khorne. (Now you're playing some Warhammer.)

Antonious said:

I'd guess that a pack horse or mule would cost about 1g. A riding horse might be 3g to 6g. Warhorses might cost 10g or 20g. I'd handle the ownership of a horse with some level of detail, insisting that the owner pays attention to the proper care, feeding and housing, and that's not going to come cheap. Every week, the expense of owning a horse might be about 1s or 2s. That would cover food, grooming supplies, stabling fees, new horseshoes, replacements or repairs of saddles and other riding gear, and so on. If you didn't want to spend that much, your horse might get split hooves or become feisty for lack of proper feeding, and start adding misfortune dice for anything you want the horse to do.

All good suggestions so far, one more idea for the looting "issue" is that for Human NPCs, where gear might be of a slightly better/more re-saleable quality, looting could be considered tantamount to stealing, certainly in the strange world that is warhammer.

Have the goods confiscated by road men or watch men AND make it obvious that said roadman/watch man is simply going to go and sell the items themselves, or have someone recognise the item as Bob's axe, as in "Hey, ain't that Bob's axe, what you doing trying to sell Bob's axe, he would never part with that, his father gave him that when he was a wee nipper, Hey, what you done with Bob?!..." etc, etc

Obviously, you can't over do this, but the occasional problem when trying to re-sell items, can make them think twice about doing it or at least be a bit more discreet, and so only choose a few items for re-sale rather than combing every encounter they come across.

Warhammer is a game in which the GM should screw his players over at every opportunity. If the players try and work the system, then you are duty bound to try and screw them over even more, as a valuable life lesson!

pumpkin said:

An idea I like even better than this - have a well armed Roadwarden patrol - or a Witch Hunter and support - stop the group or chase them down. I mean - they DO have a Chaos painting, beastmen weapons, and other items of a clearly heretical nature! I would ensure the NPC's are fairly beefy though as it seems your PC's are fond of the fight it out method of resolution! =D

Between that, the encumbance thing - and the fact that what merchant would BUY Chaos/Beastmen goods or other scraps - it should get the point across.

1) "poor quality" on corpse... urgh what about touching some ugly bleeding corpse ? Maybe it needs a Willpower check... As retrieving your arrows from a dead's chest ?

2) encumbrance strict ruling really good basics about corpse looting.

+++ Remember that in Middle Age, nobody messed with corpse because it's considered God's creation (too bad for medecine science by the way). The people's reaction I.E. in Assassin's creed 2 - which occurs in Renaissance - when you do looting was also true in Middle Age. Then you can do 3 things in WFRP universe :

3) "caught on the act" action scene : as proposed before, roadwarden, milicians or some religious guys sees them ... "heretics"...

4) moral challenge : maybe in WFRP some belief says you get to heavens/hells with your personal belongs and the one who steal you when you die is cursed by gods... Make a Discipline or semething like that check against a difficulty depends on the depth of that belief.

5) what's your party's style by the way ? As a Gm you could demand they switch their actual party sheet for a brigands/rogue party sheet

Don't Beastmen carry lice and ticks? Aren't Orcs and Goblins fungal? Surely Skaven have fleas?

I say let them loot the corpses, but they get a little more into the bargain. A misfortune dice on all tests until they've washed - properly washed and scrubbed, including clothing - due to itching should put them off.

Great suggestions everyone! I have already begun to incorporate them into my scenario for next session. I still don't think that they realize that their characters wouldn't do such things, they just are following video game RPG tendencies. I will put a little more emphasis on right, wrong and consequences for their actions are not going to help the reputation they are seeking in the game. We all are getting the hang of this yet and I am sure after a couple more sessions things will fall in line a little better. Thanks again! I will return for more advice soon!

Point out to them how silly stripping the clothes off dead people is.... I suggest taking an old pair of jeans... putting all your possible bodily fluids on them as most monsters don't bathe often, getting killed often involves spilled blood and the release of musles like the bladder and bowels.... then put some holes in them to reflect weapon cuts.... and ask how much they are willing to pay you for them.

Even if your characters said - yes... I am a low down thief and steal from the dead - how many robbings or murder robberies in the world involve taking peoples dirty clothes off of them? Taking a wallet or a watch... thats one things... taking off a dead monsters filthy soiled pants and looking to resell them.... um... no. Not even crack addicts do that...

You have to talk to you players. Tell them that you would like them to calm down on the looting. If they don'y make it hard on them. You can throw in a cursed item that they can seem to get rid of. You can have someone recognize something they have and ask for an explination. You can become very specific in exactly "How" are they carring these weapons. Do you have a backpack? sheath? While as a GM you are supposed to make it fun for them, they also have a responsibility to "go with the flow" a little. If they are doing it for better weapons, send them on quests for better weapons instead. If they need money offer alternative ways for this money. In the end the game is half yours half theirs, you should be able to talk to your players and come to an agreement. If you have to get crappy with them, when they ask to loot you can use the old video game cop out- "There is nothing of value here". Hahaha.

After reviewing a bunch of the good ideas above, I thought of a few more that haven't been explicitly mentioned yet.

1. In the Warhammer world, superstition tends to run fairly rampant, and most items used by foul creatures would most likely be regarded as tainted.
2. Which doesn't even take into account those that might be actually tainted by Chaos!
3. A Priest of Morr can also really cut down on that sort of thing - those items will help the grieving widow, the bandit's orphaned children, or simply pay for funerary rights

schoon said:

I really like that idea. It puts things in perspective for the players, exposing them to a side of combat that we rarely think about and almost never gets mentioned in video games.

Playing Runequest, my players learned that looting is not a good idea if you steal from beastman who were chaos cultists....all those infections and sometimes a liitle wrath from a god

I think looting can be okay (and profitable), if done judiciously. Some people really do carry some nice stuff that's impossible to trace.

If they go wild looting everything, then there are a couple of points you need to get across to them:

* Beastman gear is heavy, crude, ugly, and often marked with Chaos symbols. Impossible to sell, and will likely get you in trouble with witchhunters, guardsmen, and superstitious villagers.

* If a Beastman has a magical item, it's likely tainted by Chaos. Only take it to have it destroyed/excorcised/whatever. And preferably not even then.

* Beastmen smell badly and may carry parasites. Not something to use every time, and every once in a while, it may get some point across.

* Orc stuff might not be as tainted, but will superstitious villagers be able to tell the difference?

* Some people, particularly humans, may carry some really nice stuff. It is worth checking their pockets for money or informative notes (how often haven't GMs used notes in the pockets of slain NPCs to hand players a new clue? don't discourage this!).

* It depends who they are, of course. Looting nobles will get you in trouble. Looting an outlaw probably won't. Unless he robbed a noble and is carrying some of his stuff on him. The better it looks, the more likely it is to get you in trouble.

* Penetrating armour tends to damage it quite badly. Second hand armour isn't very useful. Repairing it may cost a lot. But the under-equipped militia of a poor village may still be happy with it. You can probably get some shillings for it.

* Armour in your backpack can be very big and cumbersome. Mail can be folded up in a tiny package (which makes it good loot!), but breastplates can't.

My advice is not to punish them too harshly if they stick to the reasonable stuff. But if they go crazy, first tell them it's crazy, then, if they ignore you, show them . It's a lot of trouble for little gain. But if you happen to be poor and not too respectable, you'd be crazy not to take any coin and gems. As long as nobody sees it.

To add to what has been said already:

* What the players are doing is nothing short of stealing and robbery. Have merchants react accordingly. No well respected merchant will even look at the merchandise if there's any sign it's been stolen or taken by force. A band of foreigners drops by selling suspicious goods, not exactly a "golden opportunity". Make them have to strike seedy deals.

* A merchant isn't a money dispenser into which items disappear into some sort of wormhole never to be seen again, like in video game. He has suppliers he buys things from and clientele he sells things to. Merchants that buy things from the PCs will stop buying things from his supplier. The local blacksmith will see a in his sales and he might very well refuse to fix the players items (for stealing his market).

* The merchant might call a roadwarden on the players if he feels they're nothing more than bandits.

* Buy things from the players at significantly discounted rates (think a pawn shop). Or don't buy them at all and tell the players they'll get their money if anyone purchases their wares minus the merchant's high comission (think a thrift store). The reduced prices will stop most players from bothering. The thrift shop approach can be very effective to highlight reality that merchants are in the business of SELLING things not BUYING them from their customers. Most players won't stick around to wait for an item to sell, and if they do more power to them.

* Require that all items be repaired or fixed before being taken to the merchant. What merchant buys broken goods? Second-hand items are hard enough to sell, no merchant needs broken items in the inventory. This will introduce a money drain and put a limit on to how much they can sell. The blacksmith won't be able to fix all the items instantly. Both a leather worker and a blacks might be needed for some items. Other items won't be fit for repair or the cost will be greater than the sale price (think fixing a totaled car to sell for a profit). In some cases the merchants might not even have the parts needed to fix it.

* In their looting frenzy players don't realize they've picked up items marked with initials, heraldry or other markings. Imagine the horror of the merchant finding the players have sold him a dagger that belonged to a long lost relative, claimed by the forest. Or perhaps the merchant gets tried for selling stolen goods, and he only too willingly points his finger at the players.

* Chaos tainted items might contain warpstone / wyrdstone. Nothing better than a witch hunter or group of wizards converging on the town after several warpstone tainted items are sold. You don't have to directly strike the players with the effects of mutations. I think it's much more effective to have the town plagued with mutations, starting with the merchant or blacksmith to paint the players in their true colors.

Overall, just let the players dictate their character's future through their actions. Most video game players aren't used to the universe reacting this way to their actions. They've grown accustomed to dealing with brain dead environments that are only capable of modeling a limited range of possibilities. Surprise them, they'll surely enjoy it.

And finally, they're clearly not heroes if they don't act like heroes. So let them see that first-hand. If they want to play the heroic character they'll have to actually act heroically! You might need to adjust your expectations as well, based on how the players react. Have future missions reflect their reputation, instead of saving the Elector Count's daughter, they might be asked to steal her dowry or kidnap her.