Judgment of verena is a too powerful card. I play with 3x “Judgment of verena” 3x “Will of the Electors” 3x “twin-tailed comet” and 3x “Forced March”. And I have never lost a match. I can burn down my opponents units and support cards two times pare game. There is noting that can stop it. Any wan else have any thoughts about this card?

Considering you are playing three copies, you probably haven't gone up against a well built deck that also uses 3 copies.

3 copies Dwarven Development or 3 copies Orc Blitz could easily take on 3 copies Judgment/Will of Electors

In which expansion do you get Orc Blitz and Dwarven Deveopent?

Are your oppenents playing with tuned decks as well?

I play chaos, the most pricey and in some circles considered the weakest army. I play vs an empire judgement deck and win about 30-40% if the time. So yeah it gets the better of me, BUT my deck could use some trimming too, and I am not as otimized.

I would guess either your oppenents are not also ottimizing there decks or you are just more experienced them then at this point, come out and vist me and get schooled

I actully put the slannesh domination in my chaos deck as protection from some of the super cards. It works vs judgment, cause some times you can set it off before the empire player is ready, sure you may lose lots too, but better on your terms then theres.

This works more often then you may think, because empire players often horde that card waiting to get the developmetn or unit moving cards in hand if its mid game and the oppenents is deveopoped, always fun to throw those cards against the empire.

The bottom line answer, is that it is not a problem, sound slike your play group is either too small or inexperienced.

Besides everyone else here seams to think orc blitz decks are the problem.

I also noticed that you just named 12 tatic cards throw in a few supports and you have a pretty low unit count deck. I could build sooo many decks to tool on you for that....

Even with 9 or 12 additional support cards more than half of his deck would still be units. I wouldn't consider that to be a low unit count.

thebob32 said:

They aren't cards. They are deck types.

I have to agree with bob here the card is to powerfull. The reason is that Order have all the good card to build develement and 6 cards that can move develement. I have faced this combi 5 times and never ever been close to win and i play Chaos with some orc and have 3 off all cards. And if the human gets a scout out first round you will not have many cards left. I feel that you should not build your deck to counter a singel card thats just wrong, nerf the card or make destruction more cards that can counter it.

While Judgement of Verena combined with Will of the Electors is certainly powerful, if you are prepared for it (and when playing against empire you should always prepare for it) only one of your zones will be affected, rarely two and all three only when he plays a second Will of the Electors. You can also hurt him by destroying his developments via tactics and actions when he plays Judgement of Verena.

Furthermore, I consider Nurgle's Pestilence and Shrine of Nurgle to be as effective. And the Orc's Waaagh! is probably more powerful than both combos.

Just because your chaos deck has threes of things, that dosn;t mean its a great deck.

Perhaps I am playing in a diverent "meta game" But I see so many deck builds that are 1/2 tatics and support. I am finding that units trump those cards, I keep my decks at 2/3 creatures units, and I find I do well vs combo heavy tactic decks.

I play chaos a lot vs empire, and I find the deck that gives me more trouble is cross supporting units with shrines of taal and greatswords.

A scout out early can be trouble, but you got to have the cash to units, and get the card draw up fast when you see that.

"Just because your chaos deck has threes of things, that dosn;t mean its a great deck." Ofc it dont make sure you have a good deck, but you can make much better deck if you know how to build. Played more games to day still empire rules with 1 loss and 8 wins. Dont think many of you guys know how good the empire deck is with this combo. Only deck that had good chance was orc with all out attack early but they still lost because with those deck ýou have trouble to afford develement. Emipre deck with forced march 3 Twin- Taled 3 Scout 3 Verena and 3 Electors 3 is right now imo the best combo out there. Ofc we could have missed somthing but we tried allmost everything to counter this nothing works, if you get a counter to this plz tell.

I just play game after game and do not pay close attention to the details. I will create said deck card for card and try against it. Then post results turn by turn. Give me a day or two to set up some games.

My own Chaos deck sucks hard. And it is not due to Judgement : it loses reliability to any non-Chaos deck. To me, Chaos is missing some decent 2-cost units. Sure we have the Gors and the Nurglings, but that's pretty much all of it. The other factons have better / more numerous 2-cost units.

BTW, if those Tactic heavy decks are such a threat in your playgroup, Chaos has the tools to kill those combo decks : Will of Tzeentch will discard the cards it has in hand, removing those hard-drawn combo, and the Core set Chaos Quest can do the same numerous time along te game, if needs be. Last, as mentionned above, a "Rip Dere 'eir eads off" well played might return the JUdgement toward the player. "Slaanesh Domination" may also turn key cards of the combo (mostly 3will of the Electors") against its owner.

I agree with Dywnarc: more than half of your deck should consist of Units, they are simply the most usefull cards in the game : they can attack, defend, draw cards, and/or pay for cards. Last, most of your deck should be made of 2-cost (or less) cards (without counting loyalty icons). My Chaos deck is the one with the least units, and the least 2-cost cards. This exmplains its poor results IMO.

Ok had a friend over early and played my thrown together chaos/de snipper deck vs a 50 card tunned empire deck with the exact tactics listed.

2 games- 1 for 1

Let me repeat that I was too lazy to tune up the chaos deck, its good, but not refined and kind of pricey to get going. I will play some more and perhaps give a play by play. but in summary

1st game Empire wins

I had a bad draw, took a muligan and drew bad again. I got a couple income support cards, got them out, but empires first play was the free company in battle zone. Hit we once in each zone as I droped units down to block. Had me in trouble for card count early, but down the dev's I could afford, but when the elctors will/judgement combo came up, he moved my stray battle and quest devs to my kingdom zone which had three already, and toasted my battle and quest. All over from there.

I never rea;;y had a chance this game, got a bad draw, did draw better once I was going, and empire drew dream hand. Freecompany in battle first play, lots of cheap units to get things rolling, warrior priest types/hunstsmen, talabein detachments

2nd turn- I went first and had savage muarders in starting hand plus warstone mine Empire had decent draw, but not killer. I had 6 goods t spend on the 2nd turn. Got whats her name the bloody into quest zone 2nd turn plus nurlglings. Empire started dropping developments early. (later confessed was trying to goad me into doing the same threatening an early judgement which he didn't have ) This card dropping early killed him, I was in no time at 8 goods to spedn and had card draw to back it up. Also had the cards to spare to as develompments. Wolves of the north is a great quest, I got that out, dropped a bloodsworn on and gave him cload of flies. Now its even better. I snip all empires cheap draw guys, constantly healing as well, and quest forth and kill! Empire DOES get the combo of two elector will and judgement, kills my quest zone and battle field AGAIN but its too late, I got income, I got cards, its all over for the empire.

Conclusion so far is that the judgement deck is a little annoying cause is a one-dimesional one trick pony, also I enjoy playing with and against a unit cross support empire deck, more fun to play with and against, its true that you have to really play against a judgement deck to beat it. ALSO you kind of need to know you are dealing with one right from the get go, you have to decide early you need to get the card draw up fast to weather it out. I could see caggy empire players building a heavier hitter list, and playing LIKE the have a judgment deck, and really cleaning up in some meta markets were judgement decks are feared so much as players burn good cards early playing out of fear!

Guess thats why you play best of three.... get back to you on next game, we are warmed up now.

And to the player that never losses with this deck..... no offense, but get better oppenents My chaos deck is not even optimized for this, or any, match.

However considering how slap together my deck is, it is supporting my theory that units trump combos.

2nd turn above is 2nd game, sorrey do not know how to edit

Game three play by play-

Will type while play, and post at end of game.

EMPIRE TURN #1

Empire lost last game so took first turn.

Hmmm must of been an interesting draw, just plays a huntsmen, seams weak, but didn't muligan, I am already susepecting a killer combo he dosn;t want to throw out, oh and throws down a dev in kingom.

CHAOS#1

Interesting opening hand 2 DE/cahos allaince cards, nugrlings, bloodsworn, nurgle sorc and innovation, and go figure, cauldren of blood, how did that get in here? draw suduction.. this could be interesting, trying not to smirk as I type across from him....

I want a strong front early play an allaince in kingdom, cauldren of blood as a development in kingdom, and play inovation for two points, put other allaince into quest, I suspect I will need the card draw....

EMPIRE#2 three barrels and draws 2. Puts church of sigmar into play.. annoying yes, drops a D into quest. Yep, early judgement or tryingto goad me again, I suspect the former as my early nice draw should make that ineffective.

CHAOS#2

Draw a dark zeolot and dark rider. (I know dark zealot is so/so but they are another guy you can first turn and they deffend well. Right now though dark rider looks better. Dark rider into quest and nurglr sorc is dropped as dev in quest, with an early chuch, I see him as being to pricy to wait for to get going.

EMPIRE#3 plays knights into kingdom and warrior priests into quest, oh drew deffend the boarder case he dropped into right into play off the draw. warrior priest goes a questing.

CHAOS#3 5 barrels, draw more bloodsworn and a nugles pestilence. Empire has 4 cards in hand, I am going to take a peek NOW. 2 will of electors and a forced march.. yuppers... card I missed.. could it be..... whatever I move both devs to where he has no one- the battlefield, and take the warrior priest and put him into kingdom. Yeah I know this helps his cash, but right now I woudl rather his draw go down. Dark zealot goes into quest. NO wait a min.. Hell with noone in my battlefield, I play nurgles pestilance, my dark rider takes a hit, I KILL the huntsmen and warrior priest. never mind. Put zealot down as dev in kingdom.

EMPIRE#4 5 barrels one card draw, one card in hand.

Talabhein goes onto quest

CHAOS#5 5 barrels 2 cards. Drawwarpstone meteor and dark riders. I am feeling good about this. Even if empire holds judgment, he can;t play it now and has a low card draw, hope that gives me time I need. With lots of goodies in hand to play, I put warpstone meteor in kingdom and nurglings into quest. I like to hold nurglings till they matter, but I got two points left and I want the draw. keeping rest of units in hand for now. Corrupes the tal detahcment

EMPIRE#6 5 barrels 2 cards Temple of shallya into kingdom. Holds two cards

CHAOS#6 Corruop the dark rider. YEAH extra point! Empire takes a hit. (Dosn't want two corruped units, or leave kingdom open. 8 barrels three cards.

Draw- contested stronghold, warpstone excavation and savage maruders. Play contestest stronghold, I want more devs anyways. Drop warstone as a dev in kingdom, as good there as dev as it is as a card. Besides at this point kingdom is my most critcal zone, I could recover from a judged quest zone and I still have nothing in battle. blodsworn into battle zone, time to start presure. Attack quest zone.two hits.

EMPIRE#7 - 7 barrels two cards- uncorrupes talabein. 2 tokens on qyest now, this could become a pain soon. Contested fortress in quest zone, gustav the bear in battle- yuck. keeps two cards in hand.bear attacks quest zone. I let it through.

CHAOS#7 I corrupe dark rider. Empire dosn't uses fortress. 12 barrels 3 cards. Draw lord of pus, Malus darkblade and cold one riders. (COR anyother whatever card in this deck. No fooling, got to hit hard before quest gets going. Drop pus lord, cold one knights and savage maruders into battle field. I was really torn about not putting malaus into battle field, mostly cause pus lord os usefull anywheres. However I want to get that corruption action going and need to start pounding, so malus may just have to go into quest.... All attack empire quest zone. It has 6 points remaining and the talabehin deffending. Quest will burn either way, but empire has point to buy back talabehein. Tough choice, loss the quest and kill a maruder or let it burn and count on the quest bonus later. empire chooses to block. Deffender dies, goes abck to hand, 6 points get through and burn zone. close one for me. If fortress was not used and a dev went into play, this attack was not near as attractive, but the burn is worth it. Empire figures killing savage M usefull for long term and has the income to re-deploy.

Oh malus into battle field as dev. Don;t need the hero liablity right now and have a bloodsworn and dark rider still in hand,

EMPIRE#8 7 barrels one draw card. Bright wizard goes on quest, Johann goes into kingdom. Apparentl Johann was the card I missed early buddy reveals. He had the will and march cards and was just waiting for a judgement. Bear attacks quest again, I take it.

CHAOS#8 IM empire in big deep trouble. I uncorrupe dark riders. I have no barrles to pay to corrupe a empire unit, so I have to currope my own. The Pus lord infects the nurglings, they deserve it. I take the hit to my kingdom zone. I want the dark riders for deffence. I got 12 barrels and 3 cards. I draw "we need your blood" "Horrific mutattion and chaos knights. K I need to think a min....... K I think I got a winning solution. Empire has no resorces right now. Chaos knights are sweet, but from the card and cost combo in my hand I get more milege out of the bloodsworn and dark riders, both in battlefield, play horrific mutation on pus lord. attack the battle field. Bear must block. is -1 toughness from savavge mutation. play we need your blood, has the extra to pay off the church. target bear man and give his hit point to pus lord. I am hitting for 12. bear lord eats 2, with only two developments in battle field, battlefield burns......

CHAOS WINS TIE BREAKER!

Conclusions. Well three games dons;t tell whole story, but I am leaning more towards units trump combos. Sure the right tatic combo is most often game winning, but my realible supply of units, boots on the gorund, won it for me. In retrosect this "untuned" chaos deck is likey better then the more pure snipping combo deck. This deck relies less on figity combos and just comes out swinging. I do not feel empire made any serios erros. Taking a hit on kingdom and not using the fortress early woudl have saved the quest zone a turn, put he didn;t know exatly how much power I could bring to bear, so thats a hard call. keeping the quester alive also would have saved him as well, its was that tight, and then again, I played 7 more hits of damage that turn, that was hard to predict, it easily could have been 4 or 5. But again, here is where unit count saved me, I was not drawing too many situational tactic cards, it was 2/3 units every draw, which is consistant with my unit count, so not really lucky. He could have played a few more devs but his draw was already suffering due to early pestilence, and with a high tactic count, could not count on a unti draw every turn. In fact a peek at his next thre cards reveal a Judgement (too late to matter even if we went another turn, a will of electors and a witch hunter. In retrospect he could have"judged" my draw and battlefield zone if he lived, but that woudl not have saved him. I would have left his battlefield on the brink of burning, and MY next card was another malus! So I was dropping chaos knights and malus into battlezone if I got judged, his units would have had to be droped as developments to save his own zones. Still a win. Johan could have moved to battlezone, but then kingom is vunerable.

Obviously what also won it for me was a timely nurgle pestilence killing the empire draw, and he struggles to find units again right away in his deck, and the slannesh domination. I must say I played that perfect, waited will the hand size was right so I would draw tactics. I was sure he had a judgement in opening hand. The cards he dropped as devs where two twin tailed comets from opening hand, I know why he dropped them, felt his judglemt card woudl eother come quick enouh or not and sure enough, it didn't. Perhaps he should have muliganed, I suspected he was tatic heavy from the get go from the soft opening, With the better part of a great combo in hand, I understand why he did not. Opening up with increase draw was his right play.

One could argue that the third game proved nothing as I drew the perfect counter hand early. I woudl argue that any deck that gets a great starting draw as an edge to make its game work over the other. Two savage maruders in my openeing hand getting kingdom and draw going fast is almost as good.

There is no doubt this empire deck can beat this chaos deck. When its cards come together, there is nothing I can do at all. However the gaem is NOT a forgoen conclusion. I do not win 2/3 this match up most times, but I have played this match up many time before (Empire slightly less tuned and chaos more snipper focused) I find I lose more then win, but I woudl say the match ups are about 40/60, not the 10/90 that soem would suggest the judgement match up to induce.

Two side obervations.

I notice players move to put three of a kind tatic into decks for draw relaiblity, I find if you have too many tactic cards in groups of three, you cut down the vesitlity that UNITS give you. No doubt you clean house when the combos coem together, but thsoe times they don;t, which will be and should be less often then some posts indicate, the guy that is getting a good unit or two EACH AND EVERY DRAW, will win. This is why Orc speed decks work so well, cause they are getting that "good unit: every draw cause there deck relies less on tactic card or unti combos.

Some tactic cards are too usefull, and I keep three, like seduction and call the blood. But I have only two dominations, two situaitonal to throw three into. I only carrey one bloodthristers, just as a kicker when he is draw, 70% of the time I him as a development. Don;t ask me what that cauldren of blood is doing i my deck, and the cold one knights I figured they didn;t hurt, even warpstone meter is kind of mehh in this particuler deck.

Empire deck was as follows- Tactic cards EXACTLY as above in starting post.- 12 cards

QUESTS - 2 X deffend the border

SUPPORT

3 X contested fortress

2 X shrone of taal (helped kill me in game 1)

2 X church of sigmar (kind of tailored to stimg my snipping deck, but my deck was less snip dependent then he beleived)

2 city gates 1 gate of sigmar 1 temple of shallaya (works better in an empire unit heavy deck IMO, but one card dosn;t hurt)

11 support cards

UNITS

2 x zealot hunters (**** custom deck.... knows I like DE in my chaos)

3 x huntsmen

3 x warrior priests

3 x psitoloers

3 free company

2 great swords

3 riksguard knights

1 bright wizard, one sigmars blessed, one johann , one gustov

2 nuln tinkers.

25 units

So exactly 50 cards- exactly 1/2 units.

CHAOS DECK

QUEST

2 wolves of the north

SUPPORT

2 DE/chaos allaince

2 contested strongholds

2 shrine to nurgle

3 warpstone excavations

1 warpstone meteor

1 cauldren of blood (???? so gone....)

11 cards- for future play will cauldren and warpstone, this deck not corruption focused enough. hell could do with ut shrine of nurgle as well.

TATICS

2 seduced

2 call the blood

2 we need your blood

2 slannesh domination

1 nurlge pestilence/one innovation/1 horrific mutation/1 cload of flies

12 tatics ok I including attachments here.

UNITS

3 bloodsworn

3 savage maruders

3 dark riders

3 nurglings

3 chaos knights

2 Lord of Pus

2 malaus dark blade

3 nurgle sorcs

2 chosen of tzeech

2 disciples of Khaine (yeah whatever)

1 blood thrister/ 2 whats her name the bloody

3 vile sorcs

3 dark zealots

1 malekh the changer

2 cold one knight

37 units

62 cards

Ok not quite the 2/3 ratio I thought I had. And man, where did I get this deck, this is a terrible unfocused deck.... I never looked in detail till after the game. I got to clean this deck up so it makes sence.

To be honest I do not know if the terrible unfocued nature of this deck helps or hurts my argument that the empire judgement deck is beatale, perhap I would preform poorer with a designed deck, I litteraly just grabed a chaos stack and ran with it. I rember I was working on something and there was a reason I had no gors or servants of khorn in here, I was stricking to tougher units. Wow I am shocked I won 2 out of three.

If I KNEW I was facing an empire judgement deck and was tailoring to it, I would not change it to much. Empire judgemetn decks tend to have lots of cheap units. I would get another pestilence, and keep mu units tough. I liek the fact that after first turn I shoudl be dropping a good unit in either kingdom or quest zone. I woudl prune down the tatics a bit more, the warstone meteor and increase the unit ratio more. This is a SLLLOOOWW deck, I shoudl not win 2/3 vs empire most of the tiem with the deck above, but it can do it.....

Dywnarc said:

That's an interesting point, with which I agree to some extent. IMO WH:I is not a game that is easily won by combos. While there are some game-changing combos in the end you need units to soak up damage and harm the opponent. The key to victory seems to be ressource management and versatile and cheap units are the ones that allow you the most flexibility in this area. In fact if most of your deck consists of cheap units you can probably recover quickly from Troll Vomit and Judgement of Verena.

I agree about the cheap unit thing, ALTHOUGH I beat the empire judgement deck twice with a deck that was kind of pricy units, but good ones. Also being "better" units ment I was more likey to have good units to pla as I drew that, although I still think I needed more 2-3 cost units in this deck. Getting an income of 5 min was important cause so many of my units cost that.

Hmmm I will correct you on one thing. Judgement is in conjuction with will of electors possibly backed up with forced march, can ussaly "herd" the best of your stuff into a single zone that ets wiped out, meanwhile the empire player has kept his stuff safe and is well possition to pound you.

Let me be clear, crazy combo decks work, and can work very well, I personally am not a fan of playing them cause they are so card dependent. I like ALL my cards to be good, not fishing arround for THE card that will win it for me. I find those games less satisfing, but win games they can do.

Really this excerise for me was more to see if in fact the empire judgement deck is "too powerfull" and impossioble to beat. I have faced them before and never had the feeling they were winng all the time, they did very well yes, but a hasty thrown together chaos deck just beat it best out of three, and I think my chaos deck could be made both better and faster.

I am curios if the probelm players are having dealing with the judgement deck is due to too many support and tactic cards and not enough units? I think this may be the case cause most decks I see posted are not unit heavy enough for my liking.

The word is you need an orc blitz deck to beat the judgement deck, then again, I notice most orc speed decks are creature heavy. IS it the speedy orcs that beat the empire judgement, or is it the high unit count? Perhaps the wrong question is leading players to the wrong conclusions .

**** you write to much I have also played today with my chaos/orc deck vs the empire deck and 3 loss no game near win haha.
You build your empire deck wrong i will list all the 50 units for you

Units

3: Pitoliers
3: Warrior priest
3: Reiksguard knights
3: Thyrus Gorman
3: Free company
3: Huntsman
3: Nuln tinkerers
3: Talavheim detachment

Support

3: Warpstone Excavation
3: Temple of shallya
3: Contested village
3: Gate of sigmar

Tactics

3: Will of the electors
3: Forced march
3: Judgement of verena
2-3 Twin-tailed comet
3: Sigmars intervention
3: Infiltrate

Here is my chaos/orc deck

Savage Gors:3
Festering Nurglings:3
Savage Marauders:3
Fledgling Chaos Spawn:3
Black Orc Squad:3
Squig Herders:3
Bloodthister:3
Chaos Knight:2
Bule Lord Of Pus:2
Valkia The Bloody:1
Melekh The Changer:1

Support

Contested Village:3
Shire To Nurgle:2
Cload Of Flies:3
Sadistic Mutation:3

Tactic

Blood For The Blood God:3
Seduced By Darkness:3
Bolt Of Change:1
Rip Dere'eads Off:2
Will Of Tzeentch:1
Nurgle's Pestilence:1
Slaaneshs domination:1-3

I agree that my empire was a little less otimized, but neither was my chaos by any means.

yeah its s pretty messy typoing job, tried to not delay the game to long.

Perhaps I am wrong, but I just see way to few units in that empire deck. Honestly there is not THJAT much diferent between the decks. The warpstones speed it up a little, if they are in the starting hands, but can be a draw back latter if you have the need for deffence. The empire list I got had some offensive punch with the greatswords and the taal temples. Gate of sigmar is pretty much the same as contested fortress. More to put out, but gives back more, really there are neither here or there. The witchhunters a good buy considering there special, they take out the pricy DE stuff with ease.

Fledgeling chaos spawn are a waste IMO. They barely slow an ememy down, especilay a cheap enemy like empire. I know its popular but I am simply not a fan of the rip there head off bloodthristers combo. First you need to draw the thristers before the ripthere heads off, or keep the card in hand forever. Black orcs really are like a slightly cheaper, slightly less effective version of my dark riders. BTW why do YOU not have warpstone excavations for cheap fast play. You get on eof those and a savage maruder on the first turn, you got 6 barrels on turn 2!

I can tell you right now what the problem with your chaos deck is. No snipping. Blood for blod gid can do it, but you need them in your hand at the right time.

nurgles pesitlence is killer to a empire deck liek that, so many 1 hit point units. Vile sorcs are pricy but work great. ALso we need your blood is a good snipping card which gives a boost to your offense as well.

I really do beleive that you lose this match up most times, IMO you should.

BTW I am really glad we are having this talk, its interesting. I by no means feel I am totaly right at this. I have played a lot since the game came out, and have the good fortune of playing with completly different play grioups as well which is giving my the luzery of varied experience and points of view and deck theories, and I just have not the beef with this card yet, and I fight against it more often then with it.

Tell you what. I will build this empire deck card for card, but I will build my own chaos deck, and try some games and see whats up.

BTW bloodsworn work well with cload of flies, I think FF had an artcile on it. But its easy to heal them up. Sure its cool on Val the bloody cause you can fling the damage off, but perhaps its cheaper just to heal the other party.

Well i agree that my chaos deck is not the best but still very good for most part and i dont hvae all the good cards what do bloodworm do?
And the problem vs empire is not only for my chaos i orc dwarf have like 10% win rate vs this as well when we play. we are like 3-6 that play