wren84 said:

Everytime an opponent's Unit hits the discard pile, they heal up to full health .

Judgement's real power comes fro forcing your opponent to play developments early on (thus shrinking their hand) in case you play it. If your opponents aren't playing 3+ developments into their kingdom then they need to start doing so. The Empire player also has to play multiple developments before Judgment in case the opponent knocks out their 1-2 developments in response to the card being played. Between this and destroying the Empire player's support cards early on (to slow their development) you should be able to buy yourself enough time to either put the squeeze on the Empire deck.

crowdedmind said:

Well I agree but the problem is that with scout out you will have no hand left and Order get all the good cards for development. Destruction dont have many cards that can make you gain or destroy development. Smash go boom dont work its only on your turn and when its his turn he just set down a development and move 2-4 off mine and play verena and its gg. something must be done to this. I suggest to either make verna cost 6 and make electors only move 1 development or make verna only target units or support are not both. this way you have a chance vs this and it will still be a really good combi but not a allmost aouto win.

Then the Shrine to Nurgle and Nurgle's Pestilence combo and Waaagh! would have to be changed as well, because they often are an auto win as well. Auto-Win Combos should simply be considered part of the game, but they are often situational and depend on luck of the draw. That is why you usually play best of 3.

Aykenger said:

I dont see those 2 combos near as good. Yes they are game winners but only that, with verena you can win at round 3 that you cant do with the other 2. And i think waagh also is to cheap of a card but you can survive it. How many games have you played and tested the combos? we are 6 players that see very little chance to win vs good empire verena deck. We just hope there will be new cards that can counter this. We are not the best players but we sure are not bad and are very updated on strats and combos.

My game group consists of 4 people who tend to play all races (only dwarves fall behind). From our experience Judgement of Verena on its own is almost useless, because at the moment everyone plays at least one development to each zone with units and support cards. With Will of the Electors it is certainly powerful and can win you games, but I've seen Orcs recover from it and win the game, because the Empire Player played it too early, when he had not enough power in the battlefield to finish the Orc. And I really haven't seen this combo give the victory to Empire before the 5th or 6th turn. IMO this combos effectiveness is very situational, because you are rarely able to clean up more than one zone, which sometimes simply isn't enough.

Shrine to Nurge and Nurgle's Pestilence, while not as powerful, is not as situational. First you don't have to play both during the same turn, secondly Shrine to Nurgle is useful on its own, and thirdly it will make drastically reduce defense of ALL opponent's zones, unless he can play Master Rune of Valaya. All considered it is probably as powerful as Judgement of Verena and Will of Electors. In a deck dedicated to corruption probably more powerful.

Waaagh! will easily give an Orc rush deck 8 additional damage for one turn at a cost of 3 ressources and 1 card. Quite devastating, though it can be canceled by Master Rune of Valaya and Sigmar's Intervention. It is obviously the least situational card and considering that orc rush decks usually burn down the first zone of the opponent at turn 3, it can easily win you a game at turn 4.

what you say makes sense but dont work out that for us in real game. for us empire has like 90% win maby its the whole combo that makes it so good not just verena and will of electors.

Pitoliers
3: Warrior priest
3: Reiksguard knights
3: Thyrus Gorman
3: Free company
3: Huntsman
3: Nuln tinkerers
3: Talavheim detachment

Support

3: Warpstone Excavation
3: Temple of shallya
3: Contested village
3: Gate of sigmar

Tactics

3: Will of the electors
3: Forced march
3: Judgement of verena
2-3 Twin-tailed comet
3: Sigmars intervention
3: Infiltrate

We can t beat this combo no matter what. it allways get up verena and electors combo and destroy atleast 1 side and after that they just use force march and infiltrate to seal the deal.

sometime we win but that only when we get very lucky draws like orc 3 spiders 3 warpstons something like that.

I find that rather odd. Except for Thyrus Gorman all his units have only one power and he doesn't have any card to boost their power. Or does he use Greatswords, which you did not list? Anyway, the list you posted should rarely deal more than 6 damage per turn. If none of your zones was burning before the Judgement of Verena and Will of the Electors Combo, you should have 2 to 3 turns to rebuild your defense and at least prolong the game. While he will be in a stronger position, you might be able to stall his offense. Maybe, you don't use cheap units with high hit points, to soak up damage? Do you know how many turns he usually needs to finish you off after Judgement of Verena was played and whether one of your zones is already burning? I cannot currently test the deck, but maybe your information will shed some light on its effectiveness.

your play style with this deck as empire is to get get out scout first or second round after that you just build up with support cards and controll your oppnent with tactics cards. you only need 1 development on every side while your oppnent will need 5 to be safe. and you just hold out as empire untill verena kicks in then as i said before you just seal the deal with forced march and infentrate and you will have so big advantage that you hardly can lose.

I won't be able to test that deck before the weekend, so at the moment all things I say are just hypothetical. I really don't see how that deck would survive against the more aggressive decks. It is simply to reliant on the will of electors and judgement of verena combo, because it has very few units and thus no way to defend except for sigmar's intervention (which is not really reliable either). Of course there is always the possibility, that fortune is on his side, but to my knowledge there is nothing that can be done about it

I agree with Aykenger. The empire l played with, that you feel was not as good, I actully think was better. Same tactic card set up. but with greatswords and shrine of taal, it has serious punch, when IT got the judgemetn off, it came at you with a hammer. Thjat deck looks feeble to me. Also its cards are not not that great deffensivily asdie from knights. Sit back and deffend? My more tuned chaos deck is slaming through those lines and ripping up the back end.

As I said, I will copy card for card your oppenentd deck and give it a shot with chaos again. Although my 2 out of three winds vs a simaler deck were not close, they were where with AUTHOURITY. (AS Eric Chartmen would say) The time I lost WAS when I scoat came out early though.

Well all are against me its so wierd for me its a joke how good empire is with this combo after like 20 games and empire is at 90% win rate with this. But i guess iam wrong lets w8 and see how turnament goes. We still not gonna use the card human are still very good without it.

Yeah everyone wants fun games. Hell I don;t want to play a game I know I will win every time. I agree that empire are pretty good even without judgement. An empire greatsword deck with city gates and shrines to taal can be crazy powerfull, in fact I personaly fear that deck more!

The word on the street seams to be that Orc Blitiz is the big boy on the block, the team to beat so to speak. How do orc blotz decks do against this empire deck?

I will not get a chance till the weekend, but I will put together exactly that empire deck, and try to build a chaos deck to beat it.

The deck you face is really not THAT different from the one I did. The units are neither here nore there really. The inclusion of the self killing cheap hero is the only thing I may of overlocked. He can boost card draw OR resoruace pretty cheap and quick, even if he only lives a few turns, I will have to consider that. Aside from that the warpstone excavations really speed things up for him, yet should help chaos a little.

Empire decks should not be winning 90% against tuned decks played by good players. Verena is good. It certainly shapes the game. Sometimes Empire will hit the nuts and you won't be able to stop it. But, it doesn't just steamroll everything all of the time.

Things you should be doing against Empire:

Obviously, in general, you want to be careful about how you manage your zones. If, for example, you're going into Empire's fourth turn with two units in each zone and one development in each, you're probably not going to get rocked by Verena that turn. They can use two cards and five barrels to kill two cards or three cards and six or seven barrels to kill four cards. After that, you have to be careful, as the board is going to be getting bigger. The best way to limit your vulnerability is to start playing your own removal instead of more units/supports. Obiously, you want to stack to three devs in your most important zone so they have to choose between killing your biggest zone and killing two zones. Also keep in mind that Empire often prefers to "spare" the Quest zone, since they can now shut it down with Infiltrate.

For particular factions:

Orcs:

1) Save a barrel for Rip Dere 'eads Off! if Empire is leaving one dev per zone.

2) Play Lobber Crews. Worst case, you use them in response to Verena. There are plenty of ways this card can do more.

3) Play Troll Vomit. If you plan on waiting until after Verena to Troll Vomit, then make sure you can force (or con) them into "sparing" your Kingdom. Often a good idea to play it before they have played Verena. Empire often relies on units rather than supports for card-draw (Huntsmen, Thyrus, Shrine to Taal-bolstered Pistoliers), so they often leave themselves vulnerable to this card.

Chaos:

1) Chaos has the most options in the removal department. Flames of Tzeentch, Nurgle's Pestilence, Chosen of Tzeentch, Blood for the Blood God, and Nurgle Sorcerer are in-house, and they can easily borrow Lobber Crew and/or We Need Your Blood. And the generics Pilgrimage and Burn It Down. To elaborate on the above comments, playing removal helps you in three ways against Verena: 1) it doesn't grow your board and increase your vulnerability to Verena, 2) it shrinks their board, limiting their ability to draw into Verena, pay for Verena, or swing in for a big attack after Verena, and 3) it slows the game down, allowing you to put out more developments before Verena.

2) Slaanesh's Domination and Will of Tzeentch can randomly save you from Verena. You kind of want to have both, in case they play around one. I don't know that it makes the cut in most builds, but in totally splashless mono-Chaos, it might.

Dwarves:

1) Play tactics that you can play in response to Verena: Wake the Mountain, Demolition, your own Will of the Electors and Innovate to pay for them. If they waste four barrels on a Judgment that does nothing or backfires, you are way ahead.

2) Play Stand Your Ground to bring back your biggest guy after Verena. After they attack, of course, so you can wipe out some weenies.

3) Play Zhufbar Engineers.

Thx cyberfunk i will try some of what you said. Order should have no problem with verena its destruction only. Said is i dont think it will help that much because we allready tried most off it, but i will be more carfull round 4-6 and save more cards problem still is scout for me.

You should be corrupting or otherwise killing off Free Company ASAP. This guy and Pistoliers are my top two candidates for removal the minute they hit the table. Seriously he should not be in play for more than two turns, max.

Yup. This empire deck works when the scout comes out early and has no counter. I kind a cahos snipping deck has the means to take them out quickley. I notice Wren's deck is a little more light in the snipping department. But still I totaly agree with dormouse.

Guys we had made a very big mistake wich change alot to the game card like troll vomit say "destroy all units in play" we did belive that was just units in balle not all units on board. So this give choas and orc a very big boost to the game. Really sorry for our mistake. This lead to that orc have never ever lost a game from now on troll vomit just owne all.

Ok I have conclusivly proved at least to myself, that not only is the judgment deck beatable, BUT the deck you list, is not even the best version of one.

I had more troubles with the empire judgemtn deck I build, it least it has some serious punch so when it got its combo off it could slam you with boosted greatswords backed by pistolers and shrines of taal. Your buds empire list with its feeble troops, is no match at all for my tuned chaos deck. Won three games striaght. Not only did I beat it, but I beat it in twice in games I thought I might lose!

Sorrey I was not interested in typing another play by play. But the basics it went like this.

1st game- Empire went 2nd and got scouts out and starting attack right away, likey a good call, it hurt, a bit. But my 2nd play was a DE vile sorc. I weathered the scout, it was a pain in the ass, but I got a 2nd sorc out, lowered his hit points and finished him off with a we need your blood. The presence of two vil sorcs. (a luck draw on my part) ment he could not get out and cheap units to increase his draw. He got desperate mid game as my unit count went up and he got his combo off, but I had a slanesh cultists and 4 points, He was being a typical empire player and cheap on his own developments while I had lots in play. He twin tailed a will of electors AND forchmarched a unit from battle to kingdown, which he made sure he burned, so I lost mu loadd Kingdom and battlefiled, but had a few survivers in quest, and my slannesh guy killed his kingdom development and burnt it too. He knew that would happen but needed to set the re-set button. It didn;t save him, my draw combned with the abaily to snip anything under hit point 3, ment only nuln tinkers and free company could even enter play! He was doomed.

2nd game. AGAIN he got a scout out early, and this time he got a faster start in kingdom, I was sure I was doomed, but I had will of tzzech, and after he emptied my hand, (I still got units out, cause my high unit ratio ment I was always drawing a guy, and putting him out) I plicked up and played will. I dropped a mitt full of combo set up cards from his hand, well picking up some ideal units myself. I rolled right over him.

3rd game

Now this was a very good and interesting game, although I won it too, but I was VERY close to getting decked, had to kill of a bunch of my questers and burned his last zone at the 11th hour (For me) I survived 2 judgments!

I got one of my strongest starts, Played armour and a warstone excavation first turn, had a maruder and the pus lord and a DE/Chaos allaince card in my hand. AGAIN he gets a scout out. (I am sure he keeps the **** things up his sleave) Again he is right on me dropping my cards, but I follow the same pattern, get Kingdom up to 5-6, get a unit in quest and increase draw, one unit to deffend battllefield from scouts, and kill off scout. I got Maulus darkblade at one point when he was killing me with the scout, my kingdom was pretty high, I use a vile sorc on the scout, use a we need your blood, and attack with malus, perfect, he dies if be blocks or not. Oh a but early I had cload of flies on a bloodwsorn in the battlefield, but he "judged" that. See this game he was having his own draw troubles. Never got his draw up quick enough, and was drawing too many situational tatics OR warrios priests and huntsmen which was almost useless against me. I had kingdom so well developed that he didn't have enough time or draw to move enough developments to judge me hard enough. I had a savage maruder, 2 vile sorcs in the draw zone, I was picking up 5 cards a turn. He force marched malus to the qest zone and had me drawing 8 cards, oh and judged me again, killing the rest of batte zone again. (quest and kingdom too well protected, I had a hugh draw and was dumping my max devs down the min I sttablized his hand attacks.) I realized I was about to draw out, so I used the vile sorcs on the save maruder and call of blood and killed malus, stil drawing 3 and with a big hand and just enough points to spend, I have enough units to overwhelm a zone ofr my last burn. (With a little help from seduction......

Conclusion-

The Empire deck posted, is not only beatable, but is not the best way to build that deck, I could make it better, a better version of the empire deck might beat the chaos deck I build.

I DID custom build the deck to beat the empire deck, I thought I might have to the way you sold me on its power, the deck I built has too many cards that are useless against dwarves, and a little too slow to fight a blitz deck, but I could mess with it to make it a little more well rounded, although I might then have a deck that is not quite good enough to beat anything specialized......

Sorrey wren, I do not know if your group is just caught up in play habit that lend to the judgment deck working well, but I have little difficulty beating it. Sure I had some card luck, but it appears to me the empires was just as good at times. I have no doubt with good card timing, that empire deck can mop the floor and give some pretty embrassing looses to a guy, even the deck I build, but I just can;t see it doing it consistantly vs good players.

Cyperpunks advice was spot on and should help if you follow it closer, but I do not like your deck's match vs the empire, I think it is part of the problem. Too slow and its synergies are not strong enough.

Next post will be my play guide, really its the same as cybers, and my deck the TOOOOLED it.

The deck that beat the posted empire card for card 3 times in a row. (although 2 of the games where close, and I do think the empire CAN beat this deck, put it has not yet.)

Support

3 Warpstone excavations- nuff said

2 Armouries - slower then contested villages, but you are slapping down developments anyways, so they are actully pretty effient under those conditions

2 Shrines of nurgle - Just in case the pestiliece combo plays out, although it never did.

3 Chaos/DE allaince- some dark elf cards are pricey and sybol heavy, and they help with the DE tatic cards

2 Cloads of flies- just too good in this deck

12 Support cards

TATICS

2 nugle pestilence

2 slannesh domination

3 call of blood (not nessary vs this empire deck, but handy in case I meet the greatswords that SHOULD be in the empire deck Allthough they make snipping free company cheaper also then it can kill high HP dwarves cheap.)

3 need your blood (much more handy vs this empire)

2 seduced by darkness (I lost one, should be three, handy early vs scouts, though felt like a waste at the time)

2 bolts of change (last min addition, I would not uually bother, but vs this empire deck, figured turning develpoments into units could be handy)

1 Will of Tzeech

1 innovation- what the heck, I will have lots of devs in kingdom, might as well throw it in

16 tactics - Way tactic heavy for my liking, but I felt a bit more counter control was in order vs this chaos deck, focused on makeing my draw high so that lack of units when needed would not hose me.

UNITS

3 chossen of tzeech

3 vile sorcs

3 nurgling (great, but not so much for this match up, cause the empire never has any units, I keep killing them all!)

3 dark riders (funny didn't get to play them in three games, either tossed from scouts, or needed a dev at the time, ussaly these guys rock for me, then again with such feeble empire units, I didn't need the deffence)

3 bloodsworn- awsome as always- vs this empire, they like never die.... unless they are judged!

3 savage maruaders- Most effiect unit chaos has, never build a chaos deck without them... ever....

2 pus lords

2 malus dark blade- He is cool, but almost too pricey for this deck, but he happens to synergies very well with vile sorcs, and the DE tactic cards, very good vs this empire deck.

1 Mel the changer- could have done wth it him, this is not that great a corruption deck. Never played him, althouhh he is not a bad buy

1 val the bloody- just cause I like here and always want to get cload of flies on her

2 chaos knights- too awsome to leave at home, too pricey to have too many

2 dark zealots- cause you can afford them on the first turn and they are good deffece

1 Servent of Khain- Cause I like DE and he is a slightly better dark zealot.

3 slannesh cultists- a last min addition- figured I could make a late play judgement pricey for the empire as well, it worked once, woudl usaly not bother with these guys.

30 units

QUESTS

2 wolves of the north- I like this in a chaos deck. You need a high draw anyways, so may aswell put a heavy hitter here and slam away while drawing cards.

TOTAL 60 cards.

How I played it.

It can have some slow hand draws, and no doubt these can kill you, although I seam to have good luck. One support card and a few resonable units is all you need, if lucky you get savage maruders and/or warpstone in your opening hand.

First turn you just play in the kingdom, if you are not up to 5, you may want to play in kingdom tunr 2 as well, but really turn two you are hopping to get a unit in the draw zone, you need good card income to fight off scouts and play developments. Also this approach allows you to afford to play develpoments on turn one.

The empire deck has nothing aside from its judgement combos, if you get a dev out every turn, the more time goes by, the more he needs to get more parts of a combo together to make it work.

As other have said, there is no hurry to get into the battle zone- Your units a better in every way, so your zones should be well deffended and have high hit points. Drop a unit out here just to make it not too easy for the scouts, but as others have said, bringing those scouts down is job numero uno at all times.

This snipping deck is good at killing the small stuff empire likes toput into kingdom, I wonder if empires deffecne vs me should be to save up the little guys and play them all in one turn, cause I keep killing them too fast other wise. My greatest success was from keeping the empires draw so low as too never get those combos he needs. Gorham is cool, but he is always sitting with a point of damage. at end of turn. you know what that means..... GEEK ON!!

Tzeech choosen- BOOM

Call of blood - BOOM

VIle sorc/We need your blood- BOOM

Pesilence/cloud of flies- BOOM

Kill anything that shows up in quest zone.

ALSO burn another zone FIRST, either kingdom or battle. You do that so that you FORCE the chaos player to commit the few units he has on deffence and killing his draw again. He will get smart and start using support cards there for draw, but in the early game he needs his kingdom up, so the first few always go there, after all, he still needs points to pull off these combos, he needs 6 min to be really dangerous, 8 I do start to get nervous.

Bottom line- Try my deck, tweeck it abit to your likey, and give it a try, it should beat that feable empire deck most of the time if played well.

PS - notice I finaly started to stop bothering with the bloodthrist, waste of space in this deck, I had trouble bringing myself to dropping him, finally got his lazy ass out of my chaos decks!